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	Comments on: Sinister Storytelling	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
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		<title>
		By: A. Mercer		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-49118</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A. Mercer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-49118</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I hear both sides of this because I&#039;ve had some of my own critique about the (lack of) narrative in some of the reports, which made it more design and less information, BUT, I really dislike this argument about &quot;marketing&quot; being bad, or only belonging to corporations. I believe in good, well done propaganda; I&#039;ve engaged in it myself. I think this contest could be seen as part of an effort to improve our ability to communicate both narratively and persuasively. 
I&#039;ve written more about this here: http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2008/01/19/marketing-monkeys/

Whatever nit-picking I&#039;ve done, this has been a marvelous and useful experience for me, and there&#039;s nothing creepy about that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear both sides of this because I&#8217;ve had some of my own critique about the (lack of) narrative in some of the reports, which made it more design and less information, BUT, I really dislike this argument about &#8220;marketing&#8221; being bad, or only belonging to corporations. I believe in good, well done propaganda; I&#8217;ve engaged in it myself. I think this contest could be seen as part of an effort to improve our ability to communicate both narratively and persuasively.<br />
I&#8217;ve written more about this here: <a href="http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2008/01/19/marketing-monkeys/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2008/01/19/marketing-monkeys/</a></p>
<p>Whatever nit-picking I&#8217;ve done, this has been a marvelous and useful experience for me, and there&#8217;s nothing creepy about that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dan		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-49081</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-49081</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yeah, thanks for this summary, &lt;strong&gt;Ben&lt;/strong&gt;.  Beats me if &lt;strong&gt;Tom&lt;/strong&gt; would agree but this does speak to how I&#039;ve interpreted his concerns.

Frankly, I&#039;m really surprised by the heat this idea has taken recently, not just from Tom but from other sources whose concerns are so &lt;em&gt;ad hominem&lt;/em&gt; and pedantic they aren&#039;t worth a link.

To clarify then.  This is about:

a) linking up math &amp; English, the qualitative and the quantitative, like it just isn&#039;t, and

b) assigning a year-long project that isn&#039;t some bullshit perfunctory portfolio but instead draws from dozens of skills, concepts and, most importantly, my students&#039; own lives.

This isn&#039;t about:

a) anything else.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, thanks for this summary, <strong>Ben</strong>.  Beats me if <strong>Tom</strong> would agree but this does speak to how I&#8217;ve interpreted his concerns.</p>
<p>Frankly, I&#8217;m really surprised by the heat this idea has taken recently, not just from Tom but from other sources whose concerns are so <em>ad hominem</em> and pedantic they aren&#8217;t worth a link.</p>
<p>To clarify then.  This is about:</p>
<p>a) linking up math &#038; English, the qualitative and the quantitative, like it just isn&#8217;t, and</p>
<p>b) assigning a year-long project that isn&#8217;t some bullshit perfunctory portfolio but instead draws from dozens of skills, concepts and, most importantly, my students&#8217; own lives.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t about:</p>
<p>a) anything else.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ben Chun		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-49063</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Chun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-49063</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I get what Dan&#039;s saying: Effective communication is a massively important skill, and in the modern world that means visual communication.  Might as well bring that into the classroom.  I get what Tom&#039;s saying: Don&#039;t limit communication to mere persuasion.  Somewhere there&#039;s got to be space for seeking the truth and expressing it.  Tufte writes pretty well about this, and can back his theories with solid design work.

What I really like about the annual report thing (and I&#039;m sorry I didn&#039;t participate) is that it looks more like self-reflection than anything else.  But doing it visually and quantitatively gives you another angle, aside from your memories and emotions.  Combine those together and you&#039;ve got the powerful style of personal communication that Felton first explored.  By the way, the Google Zeitgeist report is another example of the power of these visual representations -- not as persuasive evidence, but as a lens through which to observe and think about ourselves:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/zeitgeist2007/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get what Dan&#8217;s saying: Effective communication is a massively important skill, and in the modern world that means visual communication.  Might as well bring that into the classroom.  I get what Tom&#8217;s saying: Don&#8217;t limit communication to mere persuasion.  Somewhere there&#8217;s got to be space for seeking the truth and expressing it.  Tufte writes pretty well about this, and can back his theories with solid design work.</p>
<p>What I really like about the annual report thing (and I&#8217;m sorry I didn&#8217;t participate) is that it looks more like self-reflection than anything else.  But doing it visually and quantitatively gives you another angle, aside from your memories and emotions.  Combine those together and you&#8217;ve got the powerful style of personal communication that Felton first explored.  By the way, the Google Zeitgeist report is another example of the power of these visual representations &#8212; not as persuasive evidence, but as a lens through which to observe and think about ourselves:<br />
<a href="http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/zeitgeist2007/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/zeitgeist2007/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter Rock		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48739</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Rock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48739</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nick,

Who are the shareholders? Where are the laws that force your family to pursue profit over people despite any externalities foisted upon the rest of society? Who will fire you as &quot;CFO&quot; if you don&#039;t pursue the maximization of profit and instead live a balanced and moderate lifestyle?

Though I see your notion to a degree, the analogy between family and corporation fails in several essential ways.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>Who are the shareholders? Where are the laws that force your family to pursue profit over people despite any externalities foisted upon the rest of society? Who will fire you as &#8220;CFO&#8221; if you don&#8217;t pursue the maximization of profit and instead live a balanced and moderate lifestyle?</p>
<p>Though I see your notion to a degree, the analogy between family and corporation fails in several essential ways.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nick Pernisco		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48543</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Pernisco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48543</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d just like to point out that each household can be seen as a &quot;corporation&quot;... you have income/expenses, you have marketing/publicity to do if you want to advance your career, and you have to know management especially if you have kids.  I think making the annual report is a great way to see where you&#039;re spending your inputs and outputs.

To continue with the analogy, I&#039;m my own family&#039;s co-chairman of the board and CFO.  :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d just like to point out that each household can be seen as a &#8220;corporation&#8221;&#8230; you have income/expenses, you have marketing/publicity to do if you want to advance your career, and you have to know management especially if you have kids.  I think making the annual report is a great way to see where you&#8217;re spending your inputs and outputs.</p>
<p>To continue with the analogy, I&#8217;m my own family&#8217;s co-chairman of the board and CFO.  :)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dean Shareski		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48284</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dean Shareski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48284</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Once again both you and Tom are satisfy my desire to uncover ideas and perspectives. I&#039;m not sure exactly where I weigh in but I&#039;m certainly considering ideas I hadn&#039;t thought of and that&#039;s what these spaces are for. Good on you both.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again both you and Tom are satisfy my desire to uncover ideas and perspectives. I&#8217;m not sure exactly where I weigh in but I&#8217;m certainly considering ideas I hadn&#8217;t thought of and that&#8217;s what these spaces are for. Good on you both.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Hoffman		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48283</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Hoffman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48283</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What I&#039;m trying to say is that what you describe as &quot;storytelling&quot; is not the way one would teach argument, nor the way one teaches kids to make art.  What it looks like to me is the description of a pitch.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I&#8217;m trying to say is that what you describe as &#8220;storytelling&#8221; is not the way one would teach argument, nor the way one teaches kids to make art.  What it looks like to me is the description of a pitch.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Fitzgerald		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48232</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Fitzgerald]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48232</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hello, Dan,

As with just about everything, it&#039;s a matter of having a wide-ranging toolkit, and using the best approach, or having multiple approaches ready to hand.

At times, persuasive writing/storytelling works. At other times, expository writing works best. 

The &quot;storytelling&quot; element of teaching is a good comparison, but while, in a good story, the story itself can be part of the point, the overall effect of the story falls down if the ending is weak.

Perhaps the weakness of an expository approach in the math classroom is the difficulty of creating the context where the truth of the ending (ie, the point demonstrated) is not seen as something of inherent value. This is less a storytelling issue than it is an issue with creating the connections between math and everyday life. These connections exist, but they are often difficult to elucidate.

For more on storytelling, I always go to Twains &quot;Jumping Frog&quot; and Tim O&#039;Brien&#039;s _The Things They Carried_ -- 

O&#039;Briens novel obviously covers a lot more ground than simply storytelling, but there are gems in their about the power of stories -- 

Cheers,

Bill]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Dan,</p>
<p>As with just about everything, it&#8217;s a matter of having a wide-ranging toolkit, and using the best approach, or having multiple approaches ready to hand.</p>
<p>At times, persuasive writing/storytelling works. At other times, expository writing works best. </p>
<p>The &#8220;storytelling&#8221; element of teaching is a good comparison, but while, in a good story, the story itself can be part of the point, the overall effect of the story falls down if the ending is weak.</p>
<p>Perhaps the weakness of an expository approach in the math classroom is the difficulty of creating the context where the truth of the ending (ie, the point demonstrated) is not seen as something of inherent value. This is less a storytelling issue than it is an issue with creating the connections between math and everyday life. These connections exist, but they are often difficult to elucidate.</p>
<p>For more on storytelling, I always go to Twains &#8220;Jumping Frog&#8221; and Tim O&#8217;Brien&#8217;s _The Things They Carried_ &#8212; </p>
<p>O&#8217;Briens novel obviously covers a lot more ground than simply storytelling, but there are gems in their about the power of stories &#8212; </p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Bill</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48215</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48215</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[While I understand the &quot;narrative as persuasive technique&quot; point, I&#039;m unsure on your storytelling definition. &quot;Encouraging thoughtful and emotionally direct writing&quot; is very broad and reads to me as &quot;good writing&quot;. If that&#039;s all storytelling is, why are we bothering to use the word there in the first place?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I understand the &#8220;narrative as persuasive technique&#8221; point, I&#8217;m unsure on your storytelling definition. &#8220;Encouraging thoughtful and emotionally direct writing&#8221; is very broad and reads to me as &#8220;good writing&#8221;. If that&#8217;s all storytelling is, why are we bothering to use the word there in the first place?</p>
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		<title>
		By: dan		</title>
		<link>/2008/sinister-storytelling/#comment-48214</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=599#comment-48214</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If your point is that I shouldn&#039;t elevate persuasive writing above expository writing as a grand unifying theory then I&#039;m alright with that.  I simply can&#039;t find (or haven&#039;t found) a compelling analog for expository writing within mathematics.  (Paragraph proofs are close but my students find those decidedly un-compelling.)

The goal here is compelling self-expression across multiple subjects, which I guess isn&#039;t too far off the field from compelling manipulation.  I&#039;ll keep an eye on it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your point is that I shouldn&#8217;t elevate persuasive writing above expository writing as a grand unifying theory then I&#8217;m alright with that.  I simply can&#8217;t find (or haven&#8217;t found) a compelling analog for expository writing within mathematics.  (Paragraph proofs are close but my students find those decidedly un-compelling.)</p>
<p>The goal here is compelling self-expression across multiple subjects, which I guess isn&#8217;t too far off the field from compelling manipulation.  I&#8217;ll keep an eye on it.</p>
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