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	Comments on: Students As Dolphins	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
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		<title>
		By: New teacher? Blog posts to read (even if you&#8217;re not new) at tracyrosen.com		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-148541</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[New teacher? Blog posts to read (even if you&#8217;re not new) at tracyrosen.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-148541</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Me About Classroom Management and Teaching and Emergency Lesson Plans are a Great Idea by Elona Students as Dolphins by [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Me About Classroom Management and Teaching and Emergency Lesson Plans are a Great Idea by Elona Students as Dolphins by [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: â€¦a new dawn, a new morning, a new chanceâ€¦ &#124; Leading From The Heart		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-142439</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[â€¦a new dawn, a new morning, a new chanceâ€¦ &#124; Leading From The Heart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-142439</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Students as Dolphins by Dan [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Students as Dolphins by Dan [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tracy W		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-73069</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tracy W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-73069</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[dkzody - the definition of a postive reinforcer is &quot;a reinforcing stimulus that serves to increase the likelihood of the response that produces it&quot;. Given that your school&#039;s rewards are decreasing the likelihood of the response that produced the reward, the school&#039;s rewards are by definition not positive reinforcers for the students in question. Therefore the school is not using positive reinforcement. 

In this case, I would guess that the chosen students dislike being singled out as different from their peers, and thus go over the top to prove that they are the same as their gang of friends. 

What is a positive reinforcement is determined by the person receiving the reinforcer, not by the person giving it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dkzody &#8211; the definition of a postive reinforcer is &#8220;a reinforcing stimulus that serves to increase the likelihood of the response that produces it&#8221;. Given that your school&#8217;s rewards are decreasing the likelihood of the response that produced the reward, the school&#8217;s rewards are by definition not positive reinforcers for the students in question. Therefore the school is not using positive reinforcement. </p>
<p>In this case, I would guess that the chosen students dislike being singled out as different from their peers, and thus go over the top to prove that they are the same as their gang of friends. </p>
<p>What is a positive reinforcement is determined by the person receiving the reinforcer, not by the person giving it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tracy W		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-73067</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tracy W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-73067</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Maybe I’m a cynic here, but too much reinforcement when you’re a kid sets you up for an unhappy adulthood…where you have to learn that it should count as “positive reinforcement” when someone isn’t yelling at you for screwing up. &lt;/i&gt;

Is this true? I thought that it would be more that too little postive reinforcement as a kid would set you up for an unhappy adulthood where you tolerate an abusive environment. I understand that children who have been badly abused are statistically more likely to wind up in abusive relationships in adulthood than children who had decent parents.  People who grow up in abusive environments tend to regard those sorts of horrible situations as normal, and inescapable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Maybe I’m a cynic here, but too much reinforcement when you’re a kid sets you up for an unhappy adulthood…where you have to learn that it should count as “positive reinforcement” when someone isn’t yelling at you for screwing up. </i></p>
<p>Is this true? I thought that it would be more that too little postive reinforcement as a kid would set you up for an unhappy adulthood where you tolerate an abusive environment. I understand that children who have been badly abused are statistically more likely to wind up in abusive relationships in adulthood than children who had decent parents.  People who grow up in abusive environments tend to regard those sorts of horrible situations as normal, and inescapable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jeffreygene		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-72265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeffreygene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-72265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[scott - maybe people like me aren&#039;t speaking up?

my approach to classroom management is a lot like mr. k&#039;s, except, i&#039;m not at the point where i&#039;m figuring out what it is that didn&#039;t work / how to change it next time. probably part of it is that i&#039;ve spent my (short) career split between high school and middle school, which are galaxies apart in terms of the kinds of behavioral issues (and hygiene).

another question. anybody else out there in an immersion school? or beyond that, a bilingual immersion school, which is where i am. how would you deal with admin telling you to not allow a whiff of mother tongue in school? so far my approach is to claim that i can&#039;t tell mandarin chinese - allowed - apart from cantonese chinese - not allowed. but the kids know the truth, that i have a rudimentary understanding of handful of both dialects...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>scott &#8211; maybe people like me aren&#8217;t speaking up?</p>
<p>my approach to classroom management is a lot like mr. k&#8217;s, except, i&#8217;m not at the point where i&#8217;m figuring out what it is that didn&#8217;t work / how to change it next time. probably part of it is that i&#8217;ve spent my (short) career split between high school and middle school, which are galaxies apart in terms of the kinds of behavioral issues (and hygiene).</p>
<p>another question. anybody else out there in an immersion school? or beyond that, a bilingual immersion school, which is where i am. how would you deal with admin telling you to not allow a whiff of mother tongue in school? so far my approach is to claim that i can&#8217;t tell mandarin chinese &#8211; allowed &#8211; apart from cantonese chinese &#8211; not allowed. but the kids know the truth, that i have a rudimentary understanding of handful of both dialects&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: dkzody		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-72102</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dkzody]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:54:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-72102</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For 18 years I have taught in a program that gives lots of awards.  Every month, each of the 4 teachers gets to pick a student of the month for their class, then we all get together to pick an overall student from the sophomore, junior, and senior classes.  We have an awards program where the chosen students are praised in front of their peers and teachers, given a certificate (some of which come with money) and their picture is taken.  

It seems that just as we name a student of the class, that student starts to do really dumb things, getting into trouble, dropping their grades, not coming to school.  Any explanation for that phenomenon?  I&#039;ve always believed in positive reinforcement, but sometimes we are adverse to naming a student for fear of ruining them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For 18 years I have taught in a program that gives lots of awards.  Every month, each of the 4 teachers gets to pick a student of the month for their class, then we all get together to pick an overall student from the sophomore, junior, and senior classes.  We have an awards program where the chosen students are praised in front of their peers and teachers, given a certificate (some of which come with money) and their picture is taken.  </p>
<p>It seems that just as we name a student of the class, that student starts to do really dumb things, getting into trouble, dropping their grades, not coming to school.  Any explanation for that phenomenon?  I&#8217;ve always believed in positive reinforcement, but sometimes we are adverse to naming a student for fear of ruining them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott Elias		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-71562</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Elias]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-71562</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kohn (and others) point out a difference between positive reinforcement in a specific, relevant way (what Dan is doing when he talks about a student&#039;s work in a positive light) and giving out random &quot;treats&quot; when students do something good (like so many &quot;positive behavior&quot; programs where kids get tangible items for doing nice things).

I&#039;m just glad to see that so many (at least in their online personas) are moving beyond the, &quot;Do something bad and I will make something bad happen to you,&quot; mentality. This gets us nowhere.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kohn (and others) point out a difference between positive reinforcement in a specific, relevant way (what Dan is doing when he talks about a student&#8217;s work in a positive light) and giving out random &#8220;treats&#8221; when students do something good (like so many &#8220;positive behavior&#8221; programs where kids get tangible items for doing nice things).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just glad to see that so many (at least in their online personas) are moving beyond the, &#8220;Do something bad and I will make something bad happen to you,&#8221; mentality. This gets us nowhere.</p>
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		<title>
		By: TMAO		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-71541</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TMAO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-71541</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ricki, 

The thing where somewhere isn&#039;t yelling at you is known as &quot;negative reinforcement&quot; or avoidance conditioning. It&#039;s the removal of an adverse stimulus, and in and of itself, a reinforcer. Much of the prevailing motivation for schooling functions on this model. Do well and you won&#039;t...

...get yelled at
...get detention
...make your parents mad/sad
...fail in life
...end up homeless

It ceases to function when the adverse stimuli being negatively reinforced are not terribly adverse or are so far removed from the understanding of the individual, so as to be unfelt and not understood. In other words, it fails all the time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ricki, </p>
<p>The thing where somewhere isn&#8217;t yelling at you is known as &#8220;negative reinforcement&#8221; or avoidance conditioning. It&#8217;s the removal of an adverse stimulus, and in and of itself, a reinforcer. Much of the prevailing motivation for schooling functions on this model. Do well and you won&#8217;t&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;get yelled at<br />
&#8230;get detention<br />
&#8230;make your parents mad/sad<br />
&#8230;fail in life<br />
&#8230;end up homeless</p>
<p>It ceases to function when the adverse stimuli being negatively reinforced are not terribly adverse or are so far removed from the understanding of the individual, so as to be unfelt and not understood. In other words, it fails all the time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ricki		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-71527</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ricki]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-71527</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe I&#039;m a cynic here, but too much reinforcement when you&#039;re a kid sets you up for an unhappy adulthood...where you have to learn that it should count as &quot;positive reinforcement&quot; when someone isn&#039;t yelling at you for screwing up. Or to realize that the only way you know you&#039;re doing a good job is that enough extra work is being piled on you that you think your head&#039;s going to explode. 

I know, I know - we need to have &quot;intrinsic motivation&quot; but once in a while it&#039;s nice to be explicitly told you&#039;re doing a good job. I don&#039;t tend to infer that I&#039;m doing a good job from no feedback at all....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m a cynic here, but too much reinforcement when you&#8217;re a kid sets you up for an unhappy adulthood&#8230;where you have to learn that it should count as &#8220;positive reinforcement&#8221; when someone isn&#8217;t yelling at you for screwing up. Or to realize that the only way you know you&#8217;re doing a good job is that enough extra work is being piled on you that you think your head&#8217;s going to explode. </p>
<p>I know, I know &#8211; we need to have &#8220;intrinsic motivation&#8221; but once in a while it&#8217;s nice to be explicitly told you&#8217;re doing a good job. I don&#8217;t tend to infer that I&#8217;m doing a good job from no feedback at all&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter Rock		</title>
		<link>/2008/students-as-dolphins/#comment-71403</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Rock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=684#comment-71403</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yeah, but I&#039;m just lobbin&#039; &#039;em in there all gentle-like...and they&#039;re pebbles. :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but I&#8217;m just lobbin&#8217; &#8217;em in there all gentle-like&#8230;and they&#8217;re pebbles. :)</p>
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