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	Comments on: I Do Not Get Assessment At All Sometimes	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
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		By: From Unschooling To Learning Goals &#124; Stirring The Pot		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-499896</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[From Unschooling To Learning Goals &#124; Stirring The Pot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2012 18:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-499896</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] I Do Not Get Assessment At All Sometimes, from his blog by Dan Meyer [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I Do Not Get Assessment At All Sometimes, from his blog by Dan Meyer [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Colchester, VT: Standards-Based Grading		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-269479</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Colchester, VT: Standards-Based Grading]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-269479</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] for keeping students apprised of their progress, both individually and as a class. We talked about the effect of SBG on retention. Then we picked a concept and had pairs come up with a score of 1, 2, and [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] for keeping students apprised of their progress, both individually and as a class. We talked about the effect of SBG on retention. Then we picked a concept and had pairs come up with a score of 1, 2, and [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: KDeRosa		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-206879</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KDeRosa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-206879</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sounds like you&#039;re understanding of mastery learning needs some work.  

I suggest taking a look at Engelmann&#039;s &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zigsite.com/PDFs/StuPro_Align.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Student-Program Alignment and Teaching to Mastery&lt;/a&gt;&quot; and following the guidelines he lays out.

He lays out four criteria:

Criterion 1. Students should be at least 70 percent correct on anything that is being introduced for the first time.

Criterion 2. Students should be at least 90 percent correct on the parts of the lesson that deal with skills and information introduced earlier in the program sequence.

Criterion 3. At the end of the lesson, all students should be virtually 100 percent firm on all tasks and activities.

Criterion 4. The rate of student errors should be low enough that the teacher is able to complete the lesson in the allotted time.

Often the reason students don&#039;t retain what they&#039;ve learned is because the teacher did not provide them with enough distributed practice after the initial teaching.

Engelmann estimates that almost all commercially available curricula need to increase by about 4x the distributed practice provided for mastery learning to occur and for retention to be gained by the students.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like you&#8217;re understanding of mastery learning needs some work.  </p>
<p>I suggest taking a look at Engelmann&#8217;s &#8220;<a href="http://www.zigsite.com/PDFs/StuPro_Align.pdf" rel="nofollow">Student-Program Alignment and Teaching to Mastery</a>&#8221; and following the guidelines he lays out.</p>
<p>He lays out four criteria:</p>
<p>Criterion 1. Students should be at least 70 percent correct on anything that is being introduced for the first time.</p>
<p>Criterion 2. Students should be at least 90 percent correct on the parts of the lesson that deal with skills and information introduced earlier in the program sequence.</p>
<p>Criterion 3. At the end of the lesson, all students should be virtually 100 percent firm on all tasks and activities.</p>
<p>Criterion 4. The rate of student errors should be low enough that the teacher is able to complete the lesson in the allotted time.</p>
<p>Often the reason students don&#8217;t retain what they&#8217;ve learned is because the teacher did not provide them with enough distributed practice after the initial teaching.</p>
<p>Engelmann estimates that almost all commercially available curricula need to increase by about 4x the distributed practice provided for mastery learning to occur and for retention to be gained by the students.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-205185</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 01:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-205185</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My word, yes. My kingdom for a control group. Ethically, though, I would have a hard time subjecting any of my kids to chapter-based assessment. Because, even if their grades were equivalent to the control group, there are a host of other reasons why I find standards-based grading to be better for teachers, kids, and other living things.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My word, yes. My kingdom for a control group. Ethically, though, I would have a hard time subjecting any of my kids to chapter-based assessment. Because, even if their grades were equivalent to the control group, there are a host of other reasons why I find standards-based grading to be better for teachers, kids, and other living things.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Frank Noschese		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-205143</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frank Noschese]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-205143</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan, too bad you don&#039;t have a control group.  I&#039;d like to see how a group who took only &quot;Chapter&quot; exams would perform on the same final exam.  If the results are the same, then is it worth all the blood, sweat, and tears to assess the mastery way?

I&#039;ve been assessing the mastery way as well, and am rather disappointed in my midterm exam grades.  They performed no better than in the years before mastery.  (But, perhaps they were weaker to begin with, and so mastery helped?  Alas, the lack of a control group!)

Also, if it&#039;s possible, I&#039;m curious as to how their ORIGINAL concept scores (before re-takes) match up the ones on the final exam.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, too bad you don&#8217;t have a control group.  I&#8217;d like to see how a group who took only &#8220;Chapter&#8221; exams would perform on the same final exam.  If the results are the same, then is it worth all the blood, sweat, and tears to assess the mastery way?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been assessing the mastery way as well, and am rather disappointed in my midterm exam grades.  They performed no better than in the years before mastery.  (But, perhaps they were weaker to begin with, and so mastery helped?  Alas, the lack of a control group!)</p>
<p>Also, if it&#8217;s possible, I&#8217;m curious as to how their ORIGINAL concept scores (before re-takes) match up the ones on the final exam.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sarah		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-204989</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 04:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-204989</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gotta say, I&#039;m less than convinced that mastery means retention. I aced the traditional chapter tests throughout high school, but needed serious review later. Sure skills are spiraled through, but by finals time material isn&#039;t fresh anymore. Review is critical wherever you are on the spectrum. 

Maybe part of the process is teaching students about the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/infocs/study/curve.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;curve of forgetting&lt;/a&gt;, or whatever you want to call it. Remind them that once you know something, once you have that mastery, it&#039;s important to keep using it so you don&#039;t forget.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gotta say, I&#8217;m less than convinced that mastery means retention. I aced the traditional chapter tests throughout high school, but needed serious review later. Sure skills are spiraled through, but by finals time material isn&#8217;t fresh anymore. Review is critical wherever you are on the spectrum. </p>
<p>Maybe part of the process is teaching students about the <a href="http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/infocs/study/curve.html" rel="nofollow">curve of forgetting</a>, or whatever you want to call it. Remind them that once you know something, once you have that mastery, it&#8217;s important to keep using it so you don&#8217;t forget.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-204981</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-204981</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fair question.

I assigned a portfolio notebook. They had to take their five lowest ranked concepts, complete two examples, and write a verbal explanation for each. Let&#039;s say that half my students turned this in.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair question.</p>
<p>I assigned a portfolio notebook. They had to take their five lowest ranked concepts, complete two examples, and write a verbal explanation for each. Let&#8217;s say that half my students turned this in.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jackie Ballarini		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-204966</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jackie Ballarini]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 02:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-204966</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Dan&lt;/b&gt;, you said you gave them the same questions on the concept exams and on the final. Was there any type of review before the final? Just curious.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Dan</b>, you said you gave them the same questions on the concept exams and on the final. Was there any type of review before the final? Just curious.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jackie Ballarini		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-204965</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jackie Ballarini]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 02:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-204965</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Is &quot;mastery&quot; the ability to quickly &quot;refresh&quot; the skills when they&#039;re needed?  For example: pulling out the skill of factoring when working with rational expressions?

This is my second year of working with seniors. &quot;We&#039;ve learned this before&quot; is something I hear a lot. I think they mean &quot;I&#039;ve seen this, I&#039;ve done this, but I don&#039;t really remember it well.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is &#8220;mastery&#8221; the ability to quickly &#8220;refresh&#8221; the skills when they&#8217;re needed?  For example: pulling out the skill of factoring when working with rational expressions?</p>
<p>This is my second year of working with seniors. &#8220;We&#8217;ve learned this before&#8221; is something I hear a lot. I think they mean &#8220;I&#8217;ve seen this, I&#8217;ve done this, but I don&#8217;t really remember it well.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nick		</title>
		<link>/2009/i-do-not-get-assessment-at-all-sometimes/#comment-204932</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=2877#comment-204932</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Dan&lt;/b&gt; I&#039;m only hesitant to chalk things up to forgetfulness because of the change in test structure - 1 concept vs. 15 concepts. I think the big effect of that change is that it tests grayness more - memorization or procedural knowledge may get you through a concept test, but without context you may not know exactly how/when to apply your tools.

A one concept, six question test probably does a thorough job in assessing a kid&#039;s ability to apply the ins and outs of a procedure.

vs.

A six concept, six question test probably does a better job at assessing if a student knows when to apply a certain procedure.

Kind of an applications test vs. a procedural competency test. I&#039;m pondering how this would get applied in what order. Maybe trying to throw in two or three cumulative review (multi-concept) applications tests throughout the semester would help predict final exam scores.

Lastly, personally, what would you have predicted to happen for each kid? You&#039;ve seen so much of their work - where you expecting the mastery scores to determine the final, or did you have other intuitions?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Dan</b> I&#8217;m only hesitant to chalk things up to forgetfulness because of the change in test structure &#8211; 1 concept vs. 15 concepts. I think the big effect of that change is that it tests grayness more &#8211; memorization or procedural knowledge may get you through a concept test, but without context you may not know exactly how/when to apply your tools.</p>
<p>A one concept, six question test probably does a thorough job in assessing a kid&#8217;s ability to apply the ins and outs of a procedure.</p>
<p>vs.</p>
<p>A six concept, six question test probably does a better job at assessing if a student knows when to apply a certain procedure.</p>
<p>Kind of an applications test vs. a procedural competency test. I&#8217;m pondering how this would get applied in what order. Maybe trying to throw in two or three cumulative review (multi-concept) applications tests throughout the semester would help predict final exam scores.</p>
<p>Lastly, personally, what would you have predicted to happen for each kid? You&#8217;ve seen so much of their work &#8211; where you expecting the mastery scores to determine the final, or did you have other intuitions?</p>
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