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	Comments on: They&#8217;re On To Me	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:18:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-226935</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-226935</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Never fails to conjure up all kinds of gross, musclebound edifices in my head.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never fails to conjure up all kinds of gross, musclebound edifices in my head.</p>
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		<title>
		By: vlorbik		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-226934</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vlorbik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-226934</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[wow.  &quot;power-school&quot;.  good name.  the horror...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow.  &#8220;power-school&#8221;.  good name.  the horror&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt T.		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-223264</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-223264</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan, couldn&#039;t agree more with your premise of separating &quot;content&quot; and &quot;process.&quot;  Just blogged about it today.  The angle I took was more...&quot;mathematical,&quot; I guess you could call it.  The traditional &quot;points&quot; system is flawed.  

Check out my post if you&#039;re interested:  http://mctownsley.blogspot.com/2009/04/grading-points-vs-learning.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, couldn&#8217;t agree more with your premise of separating &#8220;content&#8221; and &#8220;process.&#8221;  Just blogged about it today.  The angle I took was more&#8230;&#8221;mathematical,&#8221; I guess you could call it.  The traditional &#8220;points&#8221; system is flawed.  </p>
<p>Check out my post if you&#8217;re interested:  <a href="http://mctownsley.blogspot.com/2009/04/grading-points-vs-learning.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://mctownsley.blogspot.com/2009/04/grading-points-vs-learning.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Touzel		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-219242</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Touzel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 04:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-219242</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Everyone - uhh... I know this sounds crazy, but do we really have to grade classwork? I think we teachers grade so much stuff that we are actually conditioning our students to *not* care about something--unless it&#039;s graded!

I guess we need to examine our assessment policies. 

Q - How do we measure what students know at a micro level? 
A - Formally, quizzes; informally, classwork and homework.

Q - How do we measure at a macro level?
A - Tests, portfolios, POWs, projects, etc.

Do we really need to grade classwork? I say no. I started teaching 9 years ago and I&#039;ve never once graded a classwork and I almost never deal with students not doing classwork. I&#039;m not saying I&#039;m the greatest teacher in the world--I&#039;m continually surprised that they do it, but I think that says something that they feel comfortable experimenting and trying when they know it won&#039;t be graded.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Everyone &#8211; uhh&#8230; I know this sounds crazy, but do we really have to grade classwork? I think we teachers grade so much stuff that we are actually conditioning our students to *not* care about something&#8211;unless it&#8217;s graded!</p>
<p>I guess we need to examine our assessment policies. </p>
<p>Q &#8211; How do we measure what students know at a micro level?<br />
A &#8211; Formally, quizzes; informally, classwork and homework.</p>
<p>Q &#8211; How do we measure at a macro level?<br />
A &#8211; Tests, portfolios, POWs, projects, etc.</p>
<p>Do we really need to grade classwork? I say no. I started teaching 9 years ago and I&#8217;ve never once graded a classwork and I almost never deal with students not doing classwork. I&#8217;m not saying I&#8217;m the greatest teacher in the world&#8211;I&#8217;m continually surprised that they do it, but I think that says something that they feel comfortable experimenting and trying when they know it won&#8217;t be graded.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mr. K		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-219234</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 03:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-219234</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for posting this.

Now I know part of how I screwed up the process - I was to damn transparent.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this.</p>
<p>Now I know part of how I screwed up the process &#8211; I was to damn transparent.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kate F		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-219172</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kate F]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-219172</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Sarah - In regards to extra credit, the best rationale I&#039;ve ever heard for NOT offering the type of assignments your students/parents are asking for came from Brad Fulton (a popular presenter at math conferences).  Brad offers extra credit ONLY when it&#039;s attached to a completed homework packet.  As he explains - not in his exact words, but you&#039;ll get the idea - a spare tire is only a spare if there are already 4 fully functional tires on the car.  In the same way, extra credit is only EXTRA if it is submitted in addition to a fully completed assignment.  Since I have included this explanation for why I won&#039;t offer &quot;extra credit&quot; for students wishing to raise their grades, I&#039;ve not had a single parent give me a hard time about my policy.

@Dan - I struggle with this same problem.  Unfortunately, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s the kids you have to get on board...it&#039;s the parents.    Many of the students in my classes are completely over-scheduled.  They have club sports, music lessons, religious education/church youth group, Chinese school, etc.  Their parents have trained them to figure out what affects their grades and what doesn&#039;t (and the parents discuss it amongst themselves when they&#039;re on the soccer fields, in parking lots, ...) and then they tell the students not to worry about things that won&#039;t &quot;hurt them.&quot;  So I&#039;m stuck.  Do I assign credit for &quot;classwork&quot; or not?  My current take is to assign daily credit based on effort and participation.  If a student takes reasonable notes, completes practice problems, and participates in any group problem-solving acitivities...they receive credit.  Students who complete less than 100% of the practice receive less than 100% of the points proportionally.  I collect notes/classwork on the day of the test so kids have them to use for studying.  I&#039;d love to figure out another way, but everything else I&#039;ve tried ends up with students not caring.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sarah &#8211; In regards to extra credit, the best rationale I&#8217;ve ever heard for NOT offering the type of assignments your students/parents are asking for came from Brad Fulton (a popular presenter at math conferences).  Brad offers extra credit ONLY when it&#8217;s attached to a completed homework packet.  As he explains &#8211; not in his exact words, but you&#8217;ll get the idea &#8211; a spare tire is only a spare if there are already 4 fully functional tires on the car.  In the same way, extra credit is only EXTRA if it is submitted in addition to a fully completed assignment.  Since I have included this explanation for why I won&#8217;t offer &#8220;extra credit&#8221; for students wishing to raise their grades, I&#8217;ve not had a single parent give me a hard time about my policy.</p>
<p>@Dan &#8211; I struggle with this same problem.  Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the kids you have to get on board&#8230;it&#8217;s the parents.    Many of the students in my classes are completely over-scheduled.  They have club sports, music lessons, religious education/church youth group, Chinese school, etc.  Their parents have trained them to figure out what affects their grades and what doesn&#8217;t (and the parents discuss it amongst themselves when they&#8217;re on the soccer fields, in parking lots, &#8230;) and then they tell the students not to worry about things that won&#8217;t &#8220;hurt them.&#8221;  So I&#8217;m stuck.  Do I assign credit for &#8220;classwork&#8221; or not?  My current take is to assign daily credit based on effort and participation.  If a student takes reasonable notes, completes practice problems, and participates in any group problem-solving acitivities&#8230;they receive credit.  Students who complete less than 100% of the practice receive less than 100% of the points proportionally.  I collect notes/classwork on the day of the test so kids have them to use for studying.  I&#8217;d love to figure out another way, but everything else I&#8217;ve tried ends up with students not caring.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Todd		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-219029</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 04:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-219029</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s clear from this blog. No faith in convictions a-tall! AND as dishonest as the day is long.

These are the decisions that are most interesting, though. And what do we do with the admission that this is common practice? I don&#039;t think you will (or even that you should) mention that those assignments weren&#039;t graded. It&#039;s operating off student ignorance of the system, but it really is for the greater good. Students make bad choices. One of our jobs as teachers is to help them make good ones. This is a way of doing that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s clear from this blog. No faith in convictions a-tall! AND as dishonest as the day is long.</p>
<p>These are the decisions that are most interesting, though. And what do we do with the admission that this is common practice? I don&#8217;t think you will (or even that you should) mention that those assignments weren&#8217;t graded. It&#8217;s operating off student ignorance of the system, but it really is for the greater good. Students make bad choices. One of our jobs as teachers is to help them make good ones. This is a way of doing that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-218981</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-218981</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, I mean, it isn&#039;t like I&#039;m being anything but dishonest with my kids here. Don&#039;t think that at the start of the year I &lt;em&gt;cleared&lt;/em&gt; any of this with them, like, &quot;Okay, so I&#039;m going to assign you a few hundred tasks over the school year but I won&#039;t be giving you credit for any of them,&quot; and they all kind of paused for a second, mulled it over, and then nodded their assent.

I have convictions but no courage in them, in other words.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I mean, it isn&#8217;t like I&#8217;m being anything but dishonest with my kids here. Don&#8217;t think that at the start of the year I <em>cleared</em> any of this with them, like, &#8220;Okay, so I&#8217;m going to assign you a few hundred tasks over the school year but I won&#8217;t be giving you credit for any of them,&#8221; and they all kind of paused for a second, mulled it over, and then nodded their assent.</p>
<p>I have convictions but no courage in them, in other words.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Todd		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-218718</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Todd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-218718</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Extra credit? Never, ever, ever. Credit for work completed? Regularly, though not always. Process grades are assessment, too. But I also try to get rid of all assignments that I don&#039;t grade. If we&#039;re going to do it, I try to find a way to assess it and have it show some level of skill. I keep a stack of work I didn&#039;t grade and do my best to make sure I don&#039;t give those assignments next year.

If they bring in a draft of an upcoming writing assignment, that&#039;s usually 10 points. For a second draft, I glance to see if changes have been made and throw 20 points down. Process grades. Keep in mind that the final writing assignment is 500 points.

A few years ago, I didn&#039;t put anything but the final product into the gradebook. My kids were pissed about me and my class once they figured it out (January) and I don&#039;t think it lead to any more authentic grading. I try to enter grades for everything because the big assignments, the ones that I *wish* were the only ones in the gradebook, are worth so much that none of the little stuff really makes a difference. But it matters enough to the students to compel them to complete it. Without that carrot, they don&#039;t and their final product suffers.

Sounds like you&#039;ve got a different vibe going, &lt;strong&gt;Dan&lt;/strong&gt;. I wish I only had final assessments in my gradebook and try to creep closer to that each year. I just know that when I&#039;ve tried it, I nearly had a revolt and certainly had students taking my class far less seriously. But there is that practice paragraph we wrote in class last week that isn&#039;t going down for a grade. I hope no one mentions it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Extra credit? Never, ever, ever. Credit for work completed? Regularly, though not always. Process grades are assessment, too. But I also try to get rid of all assignments that I don&#8217;t grade. If we&#8217;re going to do it, I try to find a way to assess it and have it show some level of skill. I keep a stack of work I didn&#8217;t grade and do my best to make sure I don&#8217;t give those assignments next year.</p>
<p>If they bring in a draft of an upcoming writing assignment, that&#8217;s usually 10 points. For a second draft, I glance to see if changes have been made and throw 20 points down. Process grades. Keep in mind that the final writing assignment is 500 points.</p>
<p>A few years ago, I didn&#8217;t put anything but the final product into the gradebook. My kids were pissed about me and my class once they figured it out (January) and I don&#8217;t think it lead to any more authentic grading. I try to enter grades for everything because the big assignments, the ones that I *wish* were the only ones in the gradebook, are worth so much that none of the little stuff really makes a difference. But it matters enough to the students to compel them to complete it. Without that carrot, they don&#8217;t and their final product suffers.</p>
<p>Sounds like you&#8217;ve got a different vibe going, <strong>Dan</strong>. I wish I only had final assessments in my gradebook and try to creep closer to that each year. I just know that when I&#8217;ve tried it, I nearly had a revolt and certainly had students taking my class far less seriously. But there is that practice paragraph we wrote in class last week that isn&#8217;t going down for a grade. I hope no one mentions it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nancy Bosch		</title>
		<link>/2009/theyre-on-to-me/#comment-218490</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nancy Bosch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3369#comment-218490</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I hate extra credit, the kids that need it don&#039;t do it and the kids that don&#039;t need it do it.  I teach gifted kids and extra credit feeds into perfectionism---when you have 100% you don&#039;t NEED extra.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate extra credit, the kids that need it don&#8217;t do it and the kids that don&#8217;t need it do it.  I teach gifted kids and extra credit feeds into perfectionism&#8212;when you have 100% you don&#8217;t NEED extra.</p>
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