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	Comments on: What You Can&#8217;t Do With This: NLOS Cannon Challenge	</title>
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	<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/</link>
	<description>less helpful</description>
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		<title>
		By: Nancy Bosch		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-223271</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nancy Bosch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-223271</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[...and one group can do the online launch...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and one group can do the online launch&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nancy Bosch		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-223270</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nancy Bosch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-223270</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe different groups are doing different stuff--the funnelator, the slingshot, the trebuchet, ramps, etc--rotate then come back to the big group to report findings--which most helped to demonstrate the concept, etc. Just a thought.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe different groups are doing different stuff&#8211;the funnelator, the slingshot, the trebuchet, ramps, etc&#8211;rotate then come back to the big group to report findings&#8211;which most helped to demonstrate the concept, etc. Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-223209</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-223209</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t seem to clarify this question: 

What do the groups who aren&#039;t using the funnelator &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt;?

I realize there are calculations and measurements to perform but part of my attraction to the digital simulation is that everyone has ready access to the launcher. In every lab I have ever conducted as a teacher or participated in as a student, having only one apparatus for the entire class will result in a lot of disengaged, wasted time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t seem to clarify this question: </p>
<p>What do the groups who aren&#8217;t using the funnelator <em>do</em>?</p>
<p>I realize there are calculations and measurements to perform but part of my attraction to the digital simulation is that everyone has ready access to the launcher. In every lab I have ever conducted as a teacher or participated in as a student, having only one apparatus for the entire class will result in a lot of disengaged, wasted time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clint H		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-223154</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clint H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-223154</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[1. This activity is no more subject to replication than an experimental probability activity where students flip a coin 50 times: The results may or may not be exactly the same for each trial but the cumulative effect of the gathered data serves to strengthen our model. There are two, of course, two assumptions here. A) The groups are measuring the launch angle accurately, and B) the groups are applying maximum force to the catapult.

2. You know the answer to this one already: by carefully choosing groups and scaffolding support for those groups. Do you divide groups by ability? Or do you create mixed ability groups? That&#039;s up to you to decide. I would probably create groups by ability so that support can be provided to those groups that need it. It would also allow the strong groups to extend their experimentation by varying the initial velocity of their projectile.

I have never constructed multiple funnelators, to answer your question. I don&#039;t, however, see that as the major obstacle to this unit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. This activity is no more subject to replication than an experimental probability activity where students flip a coin 50 times: The results may or may not be exactly the same for each trial but the cumulative effect of the gathered data serves to strengthen our model. There are two, of course, two assumptions here. A) The groups are measuring the launch angle accurately, and B) the groups are applying maximum force to the catapult.</p>
<p>2. You know the answer to this one already: by carefully choosing groups and scaffolding support for those groups. Do you divide groups by ability? Or do you create mixed ability groups? That&#8217;s up to you to decide. I would probably create groups by ability so that support can be provided to those groups that need it. It would also allow the strong groups to extend their experimentation by varying the initial velocity of their projectile.</p>
<p>I have never constructed multiple funnelators, to answer your question. I don&#8217;t, however, see that as the major obstacle to this unit.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-222903</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-222903</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The reason the chute manages to be fairly reproducible is a.) the launcher mechanism is gravity and b.) marbles are a consistent shape. The main is error is a.) the students measuring angles -- good grief does this get error b.) the students measuring distances and c.) the students taking times.

Each student group should be making their own. Of course between devices there isn&#039;t consistency, but that&#039;s part of the whole appeal of the lesson -- each group of students has their own unique dataset to work on. (If you&#039;re really worried about that, there&#039;s a variation involving flexible pipes, but that requires actual money to pull off.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason the chute manages to be fairly reproducible is a.) the launcher mechanism is gravity and b.) marbles are a consistent shape. The main is error is a.) the students measuring angles &#8212; good grief does this get error b.) the students measuring distances and c.) the students taking times.</p>
<p>Each student group should be making their own. Of course between devices there isn&#8217;t consistency, but that&#8217;s part of the whole appeal of the lesson &#8212; each group of students has their own unique dataset to work on. (If you&#8217;re really worried about that, there&#8217;s a variation involving flexible pipes, but that requires actual money to pull off.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-222728</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-222728</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fair enough with your allocation of time. Fair enough, also, with your inclusion of mathematical noise into the classroom dialogue, though I think there is a fine line between too much noise and too little as well as a fine moment to introduce that noise and a lot of lousy ones.

Assuming your lab strikes all those balances, I&#039;m left with two questions:

1) How do they replicate the activity? The NLOS activity is replicable. &lt;strong&gt;Jason&#039;s&lt;/strong&gt; marble activity includes an adjustable chute. I don&#039;t see how funnelators can be fired with the same reproducible accuracy.

2) Have you purchased or constructed &lt;em&gt;multiple&lt;/em&gt; funnelators for multiple small groups of students? If not – that is, if there is only one or two funnelators – how do you challenge the whole class?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough with your allocation of time. Fair enough, also, with your inclusion of mathematical noise into the classroom dialogue, though I think there is a fine line between too much noise and too little as well as a fine moment to introduce that noise and a lot of lousy ones.</p>
<p>Assuming your lab strikes all those balances, I&#8217;m left with two questions:</p>
<p>1) How do they replicate the activity? The NLOS activity is replicable. <strong>Jason&#8217;s</strong> marble activity includes an adjustable chute. I don&#8217;t see how funnelators can be fired with the same reproducible accuracy.</p>
<p>2) Have you purchased or constructed <em>multiple</em> funnelators for multiple small groups of students? If not – that is, if there is only one or two funnelators – how do you challenge the whole class?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clint H		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-222466</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clint H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 08:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-222466</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t see tackling this topic as a way to bank time for other endeavors; this is the endeavor &lt;i&gt;for which I have banked time&lt;/i&gt;.

For any student who has aspirations of being an engineer, rocket scientist, mechanic, builder or tinkerer, they need more than a computer simulation, where everything is rosy and wind resistance doesn&#039;t matter. 

I would take my 1 or 2 weeks that I have banked elsewhere, use kinematics to determine the vertical and horizontal velocities of our projectile, use vector analysis to determine the muzzle velocity of our cannons that we built, use regression to determine a function that gives distance horizontal distance as a function of launch angle (assuming maximum muzzle velocity), make predictions and test our results, and then show up prepared to apply what we have learned with the calculations to back up our decisions. On the day, whether it works or not, we will be prepared to reflect upon our work, our results and our possible sources of error so that next time we can be more efficient.

In the cost-benefit analysis of my lessons and classroom time, creating and interpreting real life data ranks the highest of anything.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see tackling this topic as a way to bank time for other endeavors; this is the endeavor <i>for which I have banked time</i>.</p>
<p>For any student who has aspirations of being an engineer, rocket scientist, mechanic, builder or tinkerer, they need more than a computer simulation, where everything is rosy and wind resistance doesn&#8217;t matter. </p>
<p>I would take my 1 or 2 weeks that I have banked elsewhere, use kinematics to determine the vertical and horizontal velocities of our projectile, use vector analysis to determine the muzzle velocity of our cannons that we built, use regression to determine a function that gives distance horizontal distance as a function of launch angle (assuming maximum muzzle velocity), make predictions and test our results, and then show up prepared to apply what we have learned with the calculations to back up our decisions. On the day, whether it works or not, we will be prepared to reflect upon our work, our results and our possible sources of error so that next time we can be more efficient.</p>
<p>In the cost-benefit analysis of my lessons and classroom time, creating and interpreting real life data ranks the highest of anything.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-221784</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-221784</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nobody here seems particularly self-righteous about his own lesson plan. I hope we can all acknowledge the importance of a cost-benefit analysis of every plan, every day, an analysis that, even for the same lesson plan, will be different for different teachers.

Me, I know I need to bank as much time as possible for WCYDWT?, miscellaneous questions, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.delicious.com/ddmeyer/showandtell/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;daily show and tell&lt;/a&gt;, so if you&#039;re going to have me a) setting up a lab or b) leaving the classroom or c) both at the same time, I need an especially compelling reason.

Firing water balloons at a teacher and launching bottle rockets from a cannon sounds like more fun than this (hypothetical) NLOS activity, but:

a) the NLOS simulation allows for some pretty serious mathematical analysis, with quadratic equations and everything, whereas water balloons are more of the same guess-and-check-and-adjust, and Jason didn&#039;t mention whether or not wind resistance messes with the bottle rockets.

b) I can get every other student her own NLOS simulator but I can&#039;t get every other student her own water balloon slingshot or bottle rocket launcher. That means a lot of students won&#039;t engage.

I&#039;d rather the real-life experience here but it&#039;s too expensive.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody here seems particularly self-righteous about his own lesson plan. I hope we can all acknowledge the importance of a cost-benefit analysis of every plan, every day, an analysis that, even for the same lesson plan, will be different for different teachers.</p>
<p>Me, I know I need to bank as much time as possible for WCYDWT?, miscellaneous questions, and <a href="http://www.delicious.com/ddmeyer/showandtell/" rel="nofollow">daily show and tell</a>, so if you&#8217;re going to have me a) setting up a lab or b) leaving the classroom or c) both at the same time, I need an especially compelling reason.</p>
<p>Firing water balloons at a teacher and launching bottle rockets from a cannon sounds like more fun than this (hypothetical) NLOS activity, but:</p>
<p>a) the NLOS simulation allows for some pretty serious mathematical analysis, with quadratic equations and everything, whereas water balloons are more of the same guess-and-check-and-adjust, and Jason didn&#8217;t mention whether or not wind resistance messes with the bottle rockets.</p>
<p>b) I can get every other student her own NLOS simulator but I can&#8217;t get every other student her own water balloon slingshot or bottle rocket launcher. That means a lot of students won&#8217;t engage.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather the real-life experience here but it&#8217;s too expensive.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Hoffman		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-221740</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Hoffman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-221740</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that a key part of Dan&#039;s approach is being engaging while avoiding time consuming hands-on experiments and activities.  That is, maybe it is best if the kids do the whole rocket/slingshot whatever project and do all the measurements and theorizing themselves, but if you can get 80% of the benefit and engagement of that with some well designed graphics, in 20% of the class time (or less), then the graphic is the way to go.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that a key part of Dan&#8217;s approach is being engaging while avoiding time consuming hands-on experiments and activities.  That is, maybe it is best if the kids do the whole rocket/slingshot whatever project and do all the measurements and theorizing themselves, but if you can get 80% of the benefit and engagement of that with some well designed graphics, in 20% of the class time (or less), then the graphic is the way to go.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clint H		</title>
		<link>/2009/what-you-cant-do-with-this-nlos-cannon-challenge/#comment-221653</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clint H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3622#comment-221653</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Since the weather is heating up, why not buy a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Water-Balloon-Sling-Shot-EA/dp/B0000BYN21&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;water balloon slingshot&lt;/a&gt; or make a  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ehow.com/how_2252866_make-funnelator.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;funnelator&lt;/a&gt;. 

I did this with my AP Calc students years ago after their exam:

1. Give them 10 balloons so they can gather data on how changing the parameters (angle of elevation, amount of pull in the slingshot) changes the distance of their projectile. 
2. Give them time to work out the calculations and maybe give them a few more shots after they have their initial guess. 
3. On day of the contest, come dressed in your swim trunks and sit yourself somewhere on the football field. See who can hit you...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the weather is heating up, why not buy a <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Water-Balloon-Sling-Shot-EA/dp/B0000BYN21" rel="nofollow">water balloon slingshot</a> or make a  <a href="http://www.ehow.com/how_2252866_make-funnelator.html" rel="nofollow">funnelator</a>. </p>
<p>I did this with my AP Calc students years ago after their exam:</p>
<p>1. Give them 10 balloons so they can gather data on how changing the parameters (angle of elevation, amount of pull in the slingshot) changes the distance of their projectile.<br />
2. Give them time to work out the calculations and maybe give them a few more shots after they have their initial guess.<br />
3. On day of the contest, come dressed in your swim trunks and sit yourself somewhere on the football field. See who can hit you&#8230;</p>
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