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	Comments on: This Is Why We Can&#8217;t Assign Nice Things	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:45:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: John Gonder		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-259412</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Gonder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-259412</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great discussion - although I&#039;ve been behind the one with 12 items taking 600 seconds - 300 to find the glasses, and 300 to make out the check. Obviously the answer is documentation - 3 iphone pics, time start, basket, time end - and a discussion of peer reviewed journal submissions process.

Keep up the good work -]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion &#8211; although I&#8217;ve been behind the one with 12 items taking 600 seconds &#8211; 300 to find the glasses, and 300 to make out the check. Obviously the answer is documentation &#8211; 3 iphone pics, time start, basket, time end &#8211; and a discussion of peer reviewed journal submissions process.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work &#8211;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Meghan		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258455</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Meghan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258455</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe its because I work with college students, but I found that allowing the students to design and determine the experiment provided a lot more intrinsic incentive to gather good data.  On the down side: I now know the average number of piercings the typical college student has...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe its because I work with college students, but I found that allowing the students to design and determine the experiment provided a lot more intrinsic incentive to gather good data.  On the down side: I now know the average number of piercings the typical college student has&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258420</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 23:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258420</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Steven&lt;/strong&gt;: I&#039;ve got to think doing this assignment would bring about a whole bunch of odd feelings in both the students, the customers, and the cashiers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Certainly. So we talked for several minutes about ways to mitigate that weirdness, all the way from making sure you introduce yourself to the cashier to covertly recording the transaction with your cell phone&#039;s video camera and analyzing the data later.

Still, I won&#039;t say I was surprised by the low submission count.

I like &lt;strong&gt;Ben&lt;/strong&gt;&#039;s note that students should be able to &quot;mime&quot; out the approximate times and I like how &lt;strong&gt;Kevin&lt;/strong&gt; takes it farther by having the students set up roles as checker and shopper and gather data on themselves. I imagine there&#039;s a large degree of uncertainty here, where students who know they&#039;re being timed will work faster but it couldn&#039;t have hurt to model exactly the kind of data collection I was assigning more explicitly.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>Steven</strong>: I&#8217;ve got to think doing this assignment would bring about a whole bunch of odd feelings in both the students, the customers, and the cashiers.</p></blockquote>
<p>Certainly. So we talked for several minutes about ways to mitigate that weirdness, all the way from making sure you introduce yourself to the cashier to covertly recording the transaction with your cell phone&#8217;s video camera and analyzing the data later.</p>
<p>Still, I won&#8217;t say I was surprised by the low submission count.</p>
<p>I like <strong>Ben</strong>&#8216;s note that students should be able to &#8220;mime&#8221; out the approximate times and I like how <strong>Kevin</strong> takes it farther by having the students set up roles as checker and shopper and gather data on themselves. I imagine there&#8217;s a large degree of uncertainty here, where students who know they&#8217;re being timed will work faster but it couldn&#8217;t have hurt to model exactly the kind of data collection I was assigning more explicitly.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kevin Young		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258418</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Young]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 23:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258418</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I really like the idea of the students gathering some data in the field, but apparently turning them loose was not sufficient.  Maybe the problem could be solved by doing some in-class data collection training: some students act as shoppers, others act as cashiers that &quot;scan&quot; several classroom objects, the remaining students collect data in groups of two. Results are compared for consistency and accuracy and you discuss challenges of good data collection. However, it may need to go beyond training--you may need to make arrangements with a grocery store and turn it into a field trip of sorts. Another option would be to ask a store if you could set up a video camera or two and have the students collect the data from the video footage--that should prove the most accurate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like the idea of the students gathering some data in the field, but apparently turning them loose was not sufficient.  Maybe the problem could be solved by doing some in-class data collection training: some students act as shoppers, others act as cashiers that &#8220;scan&#8221; several classroom objects, the remaining students collect data in groups of two. Results are compared for consistency and accuracy and you discuss challenges of good data collection. However, it may need to go beyond training&#8211;you may need to make arrangements with a grocery store and turn it into a field trip of sorts. Another option would be to ask a store if you could set up a video camera or two and have the students collect the data from the video footage&#8211;that should prove the most accurate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ben Wildeboer		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258410</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Wildeboer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258410</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Math gives your intuition a certain vocabulary&quot; - &lt;a href=&quot;/?p=6043&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dan Meyer&lt;/a&gt;

The poorly faked data points to the fact that students don&#039;t have that vocabulary. Students may not be as intimately familiar with the check-out process as us weekly grocery shoppers, but they know the drill. They should know the drill well enough to be able to &quot;mime&quot; out how long checking out 10 or 100 items takes (Ã  la &lt;a href=&quot;/?p=833&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dan the Record Breaker&lt;/a&gt;). Perhaps the value of the faked data isn&#039;t so useful as an opening to outliers or linear regression- perhaps it&#039;s a more valuable as an authentic assessment of students&#039; mathematical reasoning ability.

Personally, I disagree with &lt;strong&gt;Jane&lt;/strong&gt; and think you &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; tackle the topic of which are outliers. While statistically speaking it&#039;s a tricky and complicated business, there is value in looking at data and being able to determine where something went wrong.

I&#039;d also bash &#039;em for faking data period. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-medical-madoff-anesthestesiologist-faked-data&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Not&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://tech.mit.edu/V125/N50/50van_parijs.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cool&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Math gives your intuition a certain vocabulary&#8221; &#8211; <a href="/?p=6043" rel="nofollow">Dan Meyer</a></p>
<p>The poorly faked data points to the fact that students don&#8217;t have that vocabulary. Students may not be as intimately familiar with the check-out process as us weekly grocery shoppers, but they know the drill. They should know the drill well enough to be able to &#8220;mime&#8221; out how long checking out 10 or 100 items takes (Ã  la <a href="/?p=833" rel="nofollow">Dan the Record Breaker</a>). Perhaps the value of the faked data isn&#8217;t so useful as an opening to outliers or linear regression- perhaps it&#8217;s a more valuable as an authentic assessment of students&#8217; mathematical reasoning ability.</p>
<p>Personally, I disagree with <strong>Jane</strong> and think you <em>should</em> tackle the topic of which are outliers. While statistically speaking it&#8217;s a tricky and complicated business, there is value in looking at data and being able to determine where something went wrong.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also bash &#8217;em for faking data period. <a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-medical-madoff-anesthestesiologist-faked-data" rel="nofollow">Not</a> <a href="http://tech.mit.edu/V125/N50/50van_parijs.html" rel="nofollow">cool</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jane		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258399</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258399</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, the data is most likely fabricated.  But, one of the frustrating things about dealing with real data is that sometimes there are outliers and you have to figure out what to do about them.  

What to do about them is NOT a subject for anyone who has had less than two or three college level statistics or econometrics classes.

If you are going to teach linear regression...I&#039;d suggest getting a well behaved data set and reuse it year after year.  That way, you can focus on the lesson and you don&#039;t have to deal with the data anomalies.

FYIW, 32 data is barely enough for a central limit theorem to kick in, assuming independence and normality. If the data points are not collected from different checkers, the independence assumption may not hold.

Yes, I have a Ph.d with a field in econometrics.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the data is most likely fabricated.  But, one of the frustrating things about dealing with real data is that sometimes there are outliers and you have to figure out what to do about them.  </p>
<p>What to do about them is NOT a subject for anyone who has had less than two or three college level statistics or econometrics classes.</p>
<p>If you are going to teach linear regression&#8230;I&#8217;d suggest getting a well behaved data set and reuse it year after year.  That way, you can focus on the lesson and you don&#8217;t have to deal with the data anomalies.</p>
<p>FYIW, 32 data is barely enough for a central limit theorem to kick in, assuming independence and normality. If the data points are not collected from different checkers, the independence assumption may not hold.</p>
<p>Yes, I have a Ph.d with a field in econometrics.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steven Kimmi		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258374</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steven Kimmi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 02:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258374</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m wondering if the few who turned in data really spent any time spying checkout lines.  I&#039;ve got think doing this assignment would bring about a whole bunch of odd feelings in both the students, the customers, and the cashiers.  I&#039;m wondering if you had a couple groups; one&#039;s who said, &quot;There&#039;s no way I&#039;m doing that!&quot; and one&#039;s who said, &quot;Okay, meet me there...(at the store)this makes me feel kind of creepy&quot; and the friend replies, &quot;Yeah, everyone&#039;s looking at us, let&#039;s go home.&quot;

While I love the lesson and the assignment, I&#039;m wondering if the situation has too many stressors in it?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m wondering if the few who turned in data really spent any time spying checkout lines.  I&#8217;ve got think doing this assignment would bring about a whole bunch of odd feelings in both the students, the customers, and the cashiers.  I&#8217;m wondering if you had a couple groups; one&#8217;s who said, &#8220;There&#8217;s no way I&#8217;m doing that!&#8221; and one&#8217;s who said, &#8220;Okay, meet me there&#8230;(at the store)this makes me feel kind of creepy&#8221; and the friend replies, &#8220;Yeah, everyone&#8217;s looking at us, let&#8217;s go home.&#8221;</p>
<p>While I love the lesson and the assignment, I&#8217;m wondering if the situation has too many stressors in it?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258354</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2010 15:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258354</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In this particular instance, I threw out all their data and we ran the regression with mine. I calculated the value of the linear activity to be greater than the value of whatever lesson in morality I could come up with.

I may try to have it both ways, though, and discuss the above graph in class this week.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this particular instance, I threw out all their data and we ran the regression with mine. I calculated the value of the linear activity to be greater than the value of whatever lesson in morality I could come up with.</p>
<p>I may try to have it both ways, though, and discuss the above graph in class this week.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Derrick		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258329</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Derrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258329</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan,
Just started reading your blog a few weeks ago. I teach writing at a community college, but I still get inspired by your math. I&#039;m curious about how you handled this situation in class. I encounter laziness/plagiarism all the time, and when it is a class-wide situation like this I like to make fun of my students (in an educational way). If this was my class I would project that chart up for everyone to see and mock the obvious cheaters for a good five minutes. Of course I have the luxury of teaching legal adults whose parents can&#039;t come complaining.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,<br />
Just started reading your blog a few weeks ago. I teach writing at a community college, but I still get inspired by your math. I&#8217;m curious about how you handled this situation in class. I encounter laziness/plagiarism all the time, and when it is a class-wide situation like this I like to make fun of my students (in an educational way). If this was my class I would project that chart up for everyone to see and mock the obvious cheaters for a good five minutes. Of course I have the luxury of teaching legal adults whose parents can&#8217;t come complaining.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2010/this-is-why-we-cant-assign-nice-things/#comment-258314</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=6359#comment-258314</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Who cheated?&quot; is a really great WCYDWT question, leaning as it does on a student&#039;s intuitive sense of right and wrong more than a student&#039;s conrete knowledge of mathematics, which we build towards. &quot;Develop rules for deciding who cheated&quot; is a really excellent outcome of a WCYDWT activity.

Strong stuff.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Who cheated?&#8221; is a really great WCYDWT question, leaning as it does on a student&#8217;s intuitive sense of right and wrong more than a student&#8217;s conrete knowledge of mathematics, which we build towards. &#8220;Develop rules for deciding who cheated&#8221; is a really excellent outcome of a WCYDWT activity.</p>
<p>Strong stuff.</p>
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