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	Comments on: I Have The Coolest Hobbies	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
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		<title>
		By: dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [WCYDWT] Cheese Blocks		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-279086</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [WCYDWT] Cheese Blocks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Mar 2011 23:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-279086</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] need to reshoot everything, after controlling for variables mentioned by Matt and Christopher. It&#039;ll take some time, though. Mostly because I&#039;m sick of [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] need to reshoot everything, after controlling for variables mentioned by Matt and Christopher. It&#039;ll take some time, though. Mostly because I&#039;m sick of [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: gasstationwithoutpumps		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278730</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gasstationwithoutpumps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 15:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278730</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Actually, I&#039;m not opposed to models that have no physical explanation.  I use them all the time in my research.  The key point is that using max R^2 to pick a model out of many hypotheses makes it very likely that you will pick a bogus model, particularly if there are few data points.  (With 5 data points having different x values, I can always find a 4th-degree polynomial that fits, but it may have no predictive value for new points.)

When choosing models, one either needs to have a convincing mechanism OR one must test the model on data not used to choose the model.  (Best is to have both.) 

In my field, cross-validation is the standard, since we often have lots of data from past experiments, but collecting new data is slow and expensive.  In cross validation, you do all your model building and model selection from part of the data, then check to see how well the model fits on the remaining data.  

You have to be very careful when doing this, since you can only use the verification set once.  If you go back and change your model, based on a failure on the verification set, then you&#039;re using all the data for training, and have no independent verification.

If the model-building and selection process is automatic, you can do random splits of the data, and see the distribution of how well the data fits.  This can give you a good idea whether you have enough data to fit the sort of model you are using.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I&#8217;m not opposed to models that have no physical explanation.  I use them all the time in my research.  The key point is that using max R^2 to pick a model out of many hypotheses makes it very likely that you will pick a bogus model, particularly if there are few data points.  (With 5 data points having different x values, I can always find a 4th-degree polynomial that fits, but it may have no predictive value for new points.)</p>
<p>When choosing models, one either needs to have a convincing mechanism OR one must test the model on data not used to choose the model.  (Best is to have both.) </p>
<p>In my field, cross-validation is the standard, since we often have lots of data from past experiments, but collecting new data is slow and expensive.  In cross validation, you do all your model building and model selection from part of the data, then check to see how well the model fits on the remaining data.  </p>
<p>You have to be very careful when doing this, since you can only use the verification set once.  If you go back and change your model, based on a failure on the verification set, then you&#8217;re using all the data for training, and have no independent verification.</p>
<p>If the model-building and selection process is automatic, you can do random splits of the data, and see the distribution of how well the data fits.  This can give you a good idea whether you have enough data to fit the sort of model you are using.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278680</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 01:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278680</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yeah who knows. Maybe the y-intercept is capturing some sort of ramp up time of the microwave, or some average delay in recognizing something is melted and stopping the timer.

What&#039;s interesting to me is the (volume)*(height) term itself. Volume alone makes intuitive sense to me (the more cheese the more energy needed). But seeing that the height factor is predictive suggests some sort of asymmetry. Perhaps the microwave is effectively aiming down, or it&#039;s just that the cheese is placed at the bottom?

It&#039;s fun to think about.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah who knows. Maybe the y-intercept is capturing some sort of ramp up time of the microwave, or some average delay in recognizing something is melted and stopping the timer.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s interesting to me is the (volume)*(height) term itself. Volume alone makes intuitive sense to me (the more cheese the more energy needed). But seeing that the height factor is predictive suggests some sort of asymmetry. Perhaps the microwave is effectively aiming down, or it&#8217;s just that the cheese is placed at the bottom?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s fun to think about.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Sears		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278679</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Sears]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 01:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278679</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I just told my wife about this experiment.  Between this and the toast, she suggested that we all make grilled cheese and get over it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just told my wife about this experiment.  Between this and the toast, she suggested that we all make grilled cheese and get over it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christopher Danielson		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278657</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Danielson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2011 16:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278657</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[gasstation writes: &quot;Without a physical explanation and very few data points, fitting an arbitrary curve with high R^2 values is pretty meaningless.&quot;
I agree wholeheartedly.
Sort of.
I have raised this critique of the (Dan&#039;s word) pseudocontexts in my college&#039;s College Algebra text. I suppose your critique of Dave&#039;s model, which I sort of share, is better described as one of &quot;pseudomodels&quot;. If we can&#039;t say anything about why the function type we use should apply, then is it really a meaningful model?
I shall have to think about this and write in more depth when a bit of time opens up for me.
A few conversations in the last year have convinced me that I have in some ways been too harsh on pseudomodeling. My expectation matches gasstation’s; I expect that we should be able to explain why a particular function type is used in our model. But maybe this explanation doesn’t always need to be grounded in the context (e.g. a cubic because of volume or an exponential because of repeated multiplication). Maybe the explanation for a particular function type can be rooted in (for example) the calculus properties of the relationship. Maybe we start looking for polynomials when we notice that the rate of change is increasing (i.e. the derivative is non-constant).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gasstation writes: &#8220;Without a physical explanation and very few data points, fitting an arbitrary curve with high R^2 values is pretty meaningless.&#8221;<br />
I agree wholeheartedly.<br />
Sort of.<br />
I have raised this critique of the (Dan&#8217;s word) pseudocontexts in my college&#8217;s College Algebra text. I suppose your critique of Dave&#8217;s model, which I sort of share, is better described as one of &#8220;pseudomodels&#8221;. If we can&#8217;t say anything about why the function type we use should apply, then is it really a meaningful model?<br />
I shall have to think about this and write in more depth when a bit of time opens up for me.<br />
A few conversations in the last year have convinced me that I have in some ways been too harsh on pseudomodeling. My expectation matches gasstation’s; I expect that we should be able to explain why a particular function type is used in our model. But maybe this explanation doesn’t always need to be grounded in the context (e.g. a cubic because of volume or an exponential because of repeated multiplication). Maybe the explanation for a particular function type can be rooted in (for example) the calculus properties of the relationship. Maybe we start looking for polynomials when we notice that the rate of change is increasing (i.e. the derivative is non-constant).</p>
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		<title>
		By: gasstationwithoutpumps		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278604</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gasstationwithoutpumps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2011 00:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278604</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave, if you&#039;re going to have a huge y-intercept, I&#039;d like to see some data points closer to 0.  

Without a physical explanation and very few data points, fitting an arbitrary curve with high R^2 values is pretty meaningless.

I can see volume being an important parameter, linearly related to time (total energy needed to melt that much cheese).

I can also see &quot;thickness&quot; as a important parameter (as energy is preferentially absorbed nearer the surface).

I have trouble with the y-intercept, though.  Why should melting microscopic amounts of cheese take 13 seconds?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, if you&#8217;re going to have a huge y-intercept, I&#8217;d like to see some data points closer to 0.  </p>
<p>Without a physical explanation and very few data points, fitting an arbitrary curve with high R^2 values is pretty meaningless.</p>
<p>I can see volume being an important parameter, linearly related to time (total energy needed to melt that much cheese).</p>
<p>I can also see &#8220;thickness&#8221; as a important parameter (as energy is preferentially absorbed nearer the surface).</p>
<p>I have trouble with the y-intercept, though.  Why should melting microscopic amounts of cheese take 13 seconds?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278558</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278558</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The very simple model:

    13.071507 + 0.18126714*(volume)*(height)

has R^2 of 0.977, not bad. Found using Eureqa.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The very simple model:</p>
<p>    13.071507 + 0.18126714*(volume)*(height)</p>
<p>has R^2 of 0.977, not bad. Found using Eureqa.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278505</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278505</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Simon&lt;/strong&gt;: What software did you use to combine all the videos together?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I used Adobe AfterEffects. There &lt;em&gt;has&lt;/em&gt; to be a cheaper, simpler solution for the same effect, though.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Christopher&lt;/strong&gt;: Did you try different orientations of your cheese? The melting time of your cheese ought to vary greatly depending on how it stands. And what is your cheese budget, anyway? Can you afford several dozen more trials so we can examine variation in your data?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Different orientations of the same block of cheese is inspired. My wife has put some serious constraints on my cheese budget, though, in light of my smelling up our place, so the reshoot of this activity, while inevitable, will have to wait.

(PS. Do they only sell cheese in my part of the world? Doesn&#039;t someone &lt;em&gt;else&lt;/em&gt; have sufficient curiosity to test this out.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Karen&lt;/strong&gt;: What’s the *math* goal you’re after?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Seriously, I haven&#039;t thought about it. I&#039;m not sure where the idea comes from that this is in any way a lesson. I was curious. I followed up on my curiosity. I got confused. I came here to share my curiosity and confusion with you folks. That&#039;s about all I have right now.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>Simon</strong>: What software did you use to combine all the videos together?</p></blockquote>
<p>I used Adobe AfterEffects. There <em>has</em> to be a cheaper, simpler solution for the same effect, though.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Christopher</strong>: Did you try different orientations of your cheese? The melting time of your cheese ought to vary greatly depending on how it stands. And what is your cheese budget, anyway? Can you afford several dozen more trials so we can examine variation in your data?</p></blockquote>
<p>Different orientations of the same block of cheese is inspired. My wife has put some serious constraints on my cheese budget, though, in light of my smelling up our place, so the reshoot of this activity, while inevitable, will have to wait.</p>
<p>(PS. Do they only sell cheese in my part of the world? Doesn&#8217;t someone <em>else</em> have sufficient curiosity to test this out.)</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Karen</strong>: What’s the *math* goal you’re after?</p></blockquote>
<p>Seriously, I haven&#8217;t thought about it. I&#8217;m not sure where the idea comes from that this is in any way a lesson. I was curious. I followed up on my curiosity. I got confused. I came here to share my curiosity and confusion with you folks. That&#8217;s about all I have right now.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karen		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278490</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278490</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m interested in Belinda&#039;s question about the mathematical learning goal(s) of the lesson in which the activity is embedded.  Carmen has terrific ideas about science content knowledge and I can imagine a lesson on hypothesis testing.  What&#039;s the *math* goal you&#039;re after?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested in Belinda&#8217;s question about the mathematical learning goal(s) of the lesson in which the activity is embedded.  Carmen has terrific ideas about science content knowledge and I can imagine a lesson on hypothesis testing.  What&#8217;s the *math* goal you&#8217;re after?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christopher Danielson		</title>
		<link>/2011/i-have-the-coolest-hobbies/#comment-278476</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Danielson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=9447#comment-278476</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Having thought hard about the all-important issue of cubeyness (link below), I am delighted to see it in application here. My students&#039; cubeyness measure (sum of the reciprocals of the dimensions) needs to be adapted for this problem. I will get to work on the exposed-cubeyness-measure and its correlation to cheese melting time.

On why it works, it seems the exposed surface area is how the microwaves get into the cheese. I imagine heat loss to be a minimal concern over the time scales involved here, and in comparison to the bombardment of microwaves.

And the exposed surface area idea is lovely. Kids often wonder about orientation of prisms. Abstractly, orientation doesn&#039;t matter-a triangular prism is still a triangular prism no matter what face it is resting on (or whether it is resting on a face at all). But in the applied problem, this matters very much. Did you try different orientations of your cheese? The melting time of your cheese ought to vary greatly depending on how it stands. And what is your cheese budget, anyway? Can you afford several dozen more trials so we can examine variation in your data?

More on cubeyness:
http://wp.me/pAG7Q-3D

More on middle schoolers and prisms:
http://wp.me/pAG7Q-55]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having thought hard about the all-important issue of cubeyness (link below), I am delighted to see it in application here. My students&#8217; cubeyness measure (sum of the reciprocals of the dimensions) needs to be adapted for this problem. I will get to work on the exposed-cubeyness-measure and its correlation to cheese melting time.</p>
<p>On why it works, it seems the exposed surface area is how the microwaves get into the cheese. I imagine heat loss to be a minimal concern over the time scales involved here, and in comparison to the bombardment of microwaves.</p>
<p>And the exposed surface area idea is lovely. Kids often wonder about orientation of prisms. Abstractly, orientation doesn&#8217;t matter-a triangular prism is still a triangular prism no matter what face it is resting on (or whether it is resting on a face at all). But in the applied problem, this matters very much. Did you try different orientations of your cheese? The melting time of your cheese ought to vary greatly depending on how it stands. And what is your cheese budget, anyway? Can you afford several dozen more trials so we can examine variation in your data?</p>
<p>More on cubeyness:<br />
<a href="http://wp.me/pAG7Q-3D" rel="nofollow ugc">http://wp.me/pAG7Q-3D</a></p>
<p>More on middle schoolers and prisms:<br />
<a href="http://wp.me/pAG7Q-55" rel="nofollow ugc">http://wp.me/pAG7Q-55</a></p>
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