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	Comments on: Redesigned: Follow That Diagonal	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:17:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Gavin		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-368891</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gavin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-368891</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think a worksheet with a few examples followed by an invitation to find the answer for some larger (printed) rectangles would suffice, ending with the open-ended question.  The back page of the worksheet could be covered in grid paper so students can draw some rectangles of their own.

The video would be a nice introduction to the worksheet.  I feel that it&#039;s not necessary and the effort required to create it is not worth it, but *given* it exists, I would use it enthusiastically.  If it didn&#039;t exist, I think the worksheet would still do the job quite nicely.

What can I say?  I like a nicely conceived and executed worksheet.

I spent some time last night solving the general case, and having access to that Geogebra applet was great for my motivation and exploration.  I&#039;d happily give students access to that.  Is the file available for download?  I want to learn how it&#039;s constructed.

Final comment on the video: I am gobsmacked at its production quality, offer my congratulations at your skills, Dan, and would love to know how it&#039;s done.  What software, and how long does it take when you&#039;re reasonably experienced at using that software.

Many mathematical concepts are crying out to be visualised.  Geogebra and friends are great -- we are so lucky to have them -- but sometimes a well-produced video would be fantastic.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a worksheet with a few examples followed by an invitation to find the answer for some larger (printed) rectangles would suffice, ending with the open-ended question.  The back page of the worksheet could be covered in grid paper so students can draw some rectangles of their own.</p>
<p>The video would be a nice introduction to the worksheet.  I feel that it&#8217;s not necessary and the effort required to create it is not worth it, but *given* it exists, I would use it enthusiastically.  If it didn&#8217;t exist, I think the worksheet would still do the job quite nicely.</p>
<p>What can I say?  I like a nicely conceived and executed worksheet.</p>
<p>I spent some time last night solving the general case, and having access to that Geogebra applet was great for my motivation and exploration.  I&#8217;d happily give students access to that.  Is the file available for download?  I want to learn how it&#8217;s constructed.</p>
<p>Final comment on the video: I am gobsmacked at its production quality, offer my congratulations at your skills, Dan, and would love to know how it&#8217;s done.  What software, and how long does it take when you&#8217;re reasonably experienced at using that software.</p>
<p>Many mathematical concepts are crying out to be visualised.  Geogebra and friends are great &#8212; we are so lucky to have them &#8212; but sometimes a well-produced video would be fantastic.</p>
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		<title>
		By: J		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-364605</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-364605</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like the idea of a video for this problem, but compared to your usual videos, I find this to be on the confusing side for a couple of reasons:
1) The origin moves. Tricky when I&#039;m supposed to be gleaning the dimensions of the rectangle just from the single labeled point.
2) The process of drawing, shading squares, and un-drawing the figures is kind of distracting--I&#039;m not sure what to focus on. The problem has less to do with the process of drawing a rectangle or its perimeter than the video makes me start to think.
3) The figures disappear too quickly, and the first time through I felt like I immediately forgot what I had just been looking at. Maybe each example could just be shrunk and moved over to the side? Maybe it&#039;s just the graph paper background as opposed to a real life scenario, but I just feel my eyes glazing over as I watch this.
But even so, cool problem, cool video.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of a video for this problem, but compared to your usual videos, I find this to be on the confusing side for a couple of reasons:<br />
1) The origin moves. Tricky when I&#8217;m supposed to be gleaning the dimensions of the rectangle just from the single labeled point.<br />
2) The process of drawing, shading squares, and un-drawing the figures is kind of distracting&#8211;I&#8217;m not sure what to focus on. The problem has less to do with the process of drawing a rectangle or its perimeter than the video makes me start to think.<br />
3) The figures disappear too quickly, and the first time through I felt like I immediately forgot what I had just been looking at. Maybe each example could just be shrunk and moved over to the side? Maybe it&#8217;s just the graph paper background as opposed to a real life scenario, but I just feel my eyes glazing over as I watch this.<br />
But even so, cool problem, cool video.</p>
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		<title>
		By: LL		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-361018</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-361018</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;I once had a teaching assistant who taught in a completely different style than I do. I thought — this is never going to work — but actually it worked out well.&quot;

Linda, what a breath of fresh air it is to hear you say that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I once had a teaching assistant who taught in a completely different style than I do. I thought — this is never going to work — but actually it worked out well.&#8221;</p>
<p>Linda, what a breath of fresh air it is to hear you say that.</p>
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		By: Linda Fahlberg-Stojanovska		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-360988</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Linda Fahlberg-Stojanovska]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-360988</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Just reading briefly so excuse my ignorance. MD showed me this version http://www.ohiorc.org/pm/math/richProblemMath.aspx?pmrid=56. a couple of years ago and I thought it atrocious. 

But my mind works very methodically. So I - like David Cox - like the &quot;start small and look for the pattern process&quot;. 

But I understand that everybody does not and in fact everybody seems to hate the &quot;other&quot; approach. I think that is the reason for all of this discussion. I once had a teaching assistant who taught in a completely different style than I do. I thought - this is never going to work - but actually it worked out well. Each student got at least something he could understand well.

BTW: Zeno - the questions Tony, Steve, ... ask are EXACTLY the questions I asked when reading the original problem. I would never assume that everyone processes text in the same way and comes to the same conclusions and has the same pictures in their head. English is my first language and I am constantly bewildered by what people consider &quot;completely clear&quot;. 

My one comment is a general comment. I think we should have problems we re-examine every couple of years in school. (Why do we invert and multiply, why is the area of a circle pi*r^2, this problem...?) I need &quot;real&quot; time to process things.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just reading briefly so excuse my ignorance. MD showed me this version <a href="http://www.ohiorc.org/pm/math/richProblemMath.aspx?pmrid=56" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.ohiorc.org/pm/math/richProblemMath.aspx?pmrid=56</a>. a couple of years ago and I thought it atrocious. </p>
<p>But my mind works very methodically. So I &#8211; like David Cox &#8211; like the &#8220;start small and look for the pattern process&#8221;. </p>
<p>But I understand that everybody does not and in fact everybody seems to hate the &#8220;other&#8221; approach. I think that is the reason for all of this discussion. I once had a teaching assistant who taught in a completely different style than I do. I thought &#8211; this is never going to work &#8211; but actually it worked out well. Each student got at least something he could understand well.</p>
<p>BTW: Zeno &#8211; the questions Tony, Steve, &#8230; ask are EXACTLY the questions I asked when reading the original problem. I would never assume that everyone processes text in the same way and comes to the same conclusions and has the same pictures in their head. English is my first language and I am constantly bewildered by what people consider &#8220;completely clear&#8221;. </p>
<p>My one comment is a general comment. I think we should have problems we re-examine every couple of years in school. (Why do we invert and multiply, why is the area of a circle pi*r^2, this problem&#8230;?) I need &#8220;real&#8221; time to process things.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andy		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-359126</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-359126</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I hadn&#039;t done this stuff in a while, so rather than think of this as a presentation issue, I tried to figure out how to solve the problem.  The way _I_ ended up figuring it out required two insights that can be illustrated with two rectangles.

First, if you take a rectangle whose side lengths are relatively prime, you might see that the number of squares crossed is really the number of lines making up the squares crossed (except for that pesky place at the end where you cross both the horizontal and vertical line at the same time).

With that, a second rectangle, which had, say, some common factor to the side lengths could help one to see that the pesky place at the end isn&#039;t really a special case any more than the other places where you cross at a vertical and horizontal line at the same time.

Anyway, to me, providing these two steps could allow one to see what was going on without getting embroiled in really big rectangles with lots to count.  The point, I think, is to help students to look at the fundamental issues, rather than get into a fruitless counting exercise.  And, while brute force can provide some information, one needs to always brought back to generalization and simplification - that&#039;s what mathematics is about.

I like the paper (over something online), because I can draw on it as I&#039;m thinking about the problem.   Dan&#039;s treatment has the rectangles get bigger fast, but at least for me, getting bigger didn&#039;t provide any insight, and really made things harder to solve.  It was the nature of the rectangles, not their sizes, that was important for me.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t done this stuff in a while, so rather than think of this as a presentation issue, I tried to figure out how to solve the problem.  The way _I_ ended up figuring it out required two insights that can be illustrated with two rectangles.</p>
<p>First, if you take a rectangle whose side lengths are relatively prime, you might see that the number of squares crossed is really the number of lines making up the squares crossed (except for that pesky place at the end where you cross both the horizontal and vertical line at the same time).</p>
<p>With that, a second rectangle, which had, say, some common factor to the side lengths could help one to see that the pesky place at the end isn&#8217;t really a special case any more than the other places where you cross at a vertical and horizontal line at the same time.</p>
<p>Anyway, to me, providing these two steps could allow one to see what was going on without getting embroiled in really big rectangles with lots to count.  The point, I think, is to help students to look at the fundamental issues, rather than get into a fruitless counting exercise.  And, while brute force can provide some information, one needs to always brought back to generalization and simplification &#8211; that&#8217;s what mathematics is about.</p>
<p>I like the paper (over something online), because I can draw on it as I&#8217;m thinking about the problem.   Dan&#8217;s treatment has the rectangles get bigger fast, but at least for me, getting bigger didn&#8217;t provide any insight, and really made things harder to solve.  It was the nature of the rectangles, not their sizes, that was important for me.</p>
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		By: simon		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-358161</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[simon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 20:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-358161</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;But that language should be used in the service of a problem that interests us.&quot;

Dan, I for one would be really interested if you could write a post on this exact issue.
How do we move towards getting students using the normative (&#039;correct&#039;) words? What if they come up with their own word(s)?

Also do you see this as a problem particularly relevant to Maths? Or is it education in general.

I know how offputing &#039;using the correct terminology&#039; can be. One professor laughed at me when I said you had to flip fractions upside down if there was a divide sign. With a dismissive &quot;don&#039;t you mean invert&#039;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But that language should be used in the service of a problem that interests us.&#8221;</p>
<p>Dan, I for one would be really interested if you could write a post on this exact issue.<br />
How do we move towards getting students using the normative (&#8216;correct&#8217;) words? What if they come up with their own word(s)?</p>
<p>Also do you see this as a problem particularly relevant to Maths? Or is it education in general.</p>
<p>I know how offputing &#8216;using the correct terminology&#8217; can be. One professor laughed at me when I said you had to flip fractions upside down if there was a divide sign. With a dismissive &#8220;don&#8217;t you mean invert&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Port		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-357709</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Port]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 23:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-357709</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey Dan... Like the video. This same idea was used by the Maths300 people here in Australia. The software they have does a great job of inviting students in with the questions we WANT them to ask (or at least think!). It animates the diagonal and gives a count of how many squares as it goes. You input the dimensions of the rectangle (up to 1000x1000) so you can go for relatively prime numbers first, then when they think they have it, introduce like a 6 by 4 rectangle. The students are always keen to see the software verify their guesses.
They also couch the problem in a story of an electrician laying cabling diagonally across a tiled floor.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Dan&#8230; Like the video. This same idea was used by the Maths300 people here in Australia. The software they have does a great job of inviting students in with the questions we WANT them to ask (or at least think!). It animates the diagonal and gives a count of how many squares as it goes. You input the dimensions of the rectangle (up to 1000&#215;1000) so you can go for relatively prime numbers first, then when they think they have it, introduce like a 6 by 4 rectangle. The students are always keen to see the software verify their guesses.<br />
They also couch the problem in a story of an electrician laying cabling diagonally across a tiled floor.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-357640</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 20:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-357640</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Tim&lt;/strong&gt;: While I appreciate the videos that engage their math curiosity, I don’t think videos that simply circumnavigate language are helpful.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree, but this particular video intends to &lt;em&gt;postpone&lt;/em&gt; language, not to circumvent it. Academic vocabulary and precise mathematical language is important and valued in my classroom. But that language should be used in the service of a problem that interests us. For instance, it&#039;s really hard to talk about the video if you&#039;re always referring to &quot;the segment that connects two opposite vertices of the rectangle.&quot; That&#039;s where we introduce the term &quot;diagonal.&quot; The same goes for the rest of the language.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>Tim</strong>: While I appreciate the videos that engage their math curiosity, I don’t think videos that simply circumnavigate language are helpful.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree, but this particular video intends to <em>postpone</em> language, not to circumvent it. Academic vocabulary and precise mathematical language is important and valued in my classroom. But that language should be used in the service of a problem that interests us. For instance, it&#8217;s really hard to talk about the video if you&#8217;re always referring to &#8220;the segment that connects two opposite vertices of the rectangle.&#8221; That&#8217;s where we introduce the term &#8220;diagonal.&#8221; The same goes for the rest of the language.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tim Hartman		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-357639</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Hartman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 20:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-357639</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think the crux of this conversation is a question that hasn&#039;t been posed: How much literacy should we teach in the mathematics classroom?  In the past, Dan&#039;s videos have been about storytelling - an approach that motivates students to want to find the answer to a math problem.  In this case, I think all three of the approaches are still very abstract.  The only difference in my mind is the level of language that is being used from nearly none in Dan&#039;s case to very academic language in the original Schoenfeld problem.

While I want my (minority, inner-city) high school students to succeed in math, what I want more is for them to succeed in life.  For them to do that, the first step is success on the state exam needed to graduate, and then maybe the SAT.  While I appreciate the videos that engage their math curiosity, I don&#039;t think videos that simply circumnavigate language are helpful.  More important would be teaching the tools to understand the problems as they are worded on (unfortunately necessary) standardized tests.  In other words, mastery of math is GREAT, but if they can&#039;t prove to society that they&#039;ve mastered it, they&#039;re never going to get a leg up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the crux of this conversation is a question that hasn&#8217;t been posed: How much literacy should we teach in the mathematics classroom?  In the past, Dan&#8217;s videos have been about storytelling &#8211; an approach that motivates students to want to find the answer to a math problem.  In this case, I think all three of the approaches are still very abstract.  The only difference in my mind is the level of language that is being used from nearly none in Dan&#8217;s case to very academic language in the original Schoenfeld problem.</p>
<p>While I want my (minority, inner-city) high school students to succeed in math, what I want more is for them to succeed in life.  For them to do that, the first step is success on the state exam needed to graduate, and then maybe the SAT.  While I appreciate the videos that engage their math curiosity, I don&#8217;t think videos that simply circumnavigate language are helpful.  More important would be teaching the tools to understand the problems as they are worded on (unfortunately necessary) standardized tests.  In other words, mastery of math is GREAT, but if they can&#8217;t prove to society that they&#8217;ve mastered it, they&#8217;re never going to get a leg up.</p>
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		By: Robert Hansen		</title>
		<link>/2011/redesigned-follow-that-diagonal/#comment-357542</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Hansen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 14:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=12256#comment-357542</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like Dan&#039;s video, for a class that is just beginning to solve deductive problems and I am trying to teach, though I would also prefer his examples as still images for the reasons mentioned, I would want the different examples available at the same time. Dan&#039;s video adds the modulus operation aspect of this problem. After they have developed deductive problem solving skills I prefer Schoenfeld&#039;s version because it is has elements of what is actually required outside of the classroom. You have to see and investigate  these contexts on your own, in your head and on paper.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Dan&#8217;s video, for a class that is just beginning to solve deductive problems and I am trying to teach, though I would also prefer his examples as still images for the reasons mentioned, I would want the different examples available at the same time. Dan&#8217;s video adds the modulus operation aspect of this problem. After they have developed deductive problem solving skills I prefer Schoenfeld&#8217;s version because it is has elements of what is actually required outside of the classroom. You have to see and investigate  these contexts on your own, in your head and on paper.</p>
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