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	Comments on: [LOA] What &#8220;The Literature&#8221; Says	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:09:54 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Max		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-576902</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-576902</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks Jason. I&#039;m looking forward to reading the book, as I&#039;ve read bits of Luria and Vygotsky in school and was always curious to know more of their thinking and the context it arose from. I think the article that got me curious about how to interpret their findings was this one: http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~siegler/35rogoffmor89.pdf. Specifically the anecdote from Glick (1975) about the Kpelle man who, when asked, how would a fool sort these objects, sorts them into the categories the researcher would have.

Overall, this conversation seems to fit really nicely with the idea that abstraction isn&#039;t a single state or skill (i.e. these people do or don&#039;t/can or can&#039;t abstract) but rather that the process of abstracting is one with many rungs. So, for example, looking at a picture of a log and seeing it as representing a wooden log is an abstraction. Grouping axes, hammers, and saws together as tools, or objects made of metal, and excluding a log from that group, is another abstraction. It seems important to think about which abstractions are culturally meaningful and valued, especially when the non-valued abstractions are also powerful in the world (e.g. the coordinate plane, algebra, etc.) and to think about abstractions and culturally determined rather than fixed, which Luria helps us see. Rejecting Luria&#039;s results as racist or biased seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water. On the other hand it&#039;s important to question whether the people in the studies were unable to engage in a certain sophisticated cognitive skill, or whether they didn&#039;t value that skill, or didn&#039;t value that particular application of that skill. (Another interesting source is the &quot;What the Research Shows&quot; section of this book: https://www.oralitystrategies.org/files/1/772/The%20Non-Literate%20Min.pdf)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jason. I&#8217;m looking forward to reading the book, as I&#8217;ve read bits of Luria and Vygotsky in school and was always curious to know more of their thinking and the context it arose from. I think the article that got me curious about how to interpret their findings was this one: <a href="http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~siegler/35rogoffmor89.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~siegler/35rogoffmor89.pdf</a>. Specifically the anecdote from Glick (1975) about the Kpelle man who, when asked, how would a fool sort these objects, sorts them into the categories the researcher would have.</p>
<p>Overall, this conversation seems to fit really nicely with the idea that abstraction isn&#8217;t a single state or skill (i.e. these people do or don&#8217;t/can or can&#8217;t abstract) but rather that the process of abstracting is one with many rungs. So, for example, looking at a picture of a log and seeing it as representing a wooden log is an abstraction. Grouping axes, hammers, and saws together as tools, or objects made of metal, and excluding a log from that group, is another abstraction. It seems important to think about which abstractions are culturally meaningful and valued, especially when the non-valued abstractions are also powerful in the world (e.g. the coordinate plane, algebra, etc.) and to think about abstractions and culturally determined rather than fixed, which Luria helps us see. Rejecting Luria&#8217;s results as racist or biased seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water. On the other hand it&#8217;s important to question whether the people in the studies were unable to engage in a certain sophisticated cognitive skill, or whether they didn&#8217;t value that skill, or didn&#8217;t value that particular application of that skill. (Another interesting source is the &#8220;What the Research Shows&#8221; section of this book: <a href="https://www.oralitystrategies.org/files/1/772/The%20Non-Literate%20Min.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.oralitystrategies.org/files/1/772/The%20Non-Literate%20Min.pdf</a>)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-576847</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-576847</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Max, I think your argument is sustainable, but I&#039;d recommend reading the book.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max, I think your argument is sustainable, but I&#8217;d recommend reading the book.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Max		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-576740</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-576740</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jason, that example makes me wonder... is it fair to say they lack abstraction, or just that they are actively resisting/questioning the usefulness of the scientists&#039; abstraction for their needs. They were able to name and question the abstraction, just chose not to use it. It reminds me of students who are classified as not being able to do algebra because they persist at guessing and checking. But if you ask them they say, well yeah, I could write an equation, but I got there quickly and more easily with my more concrete strategy. There was no experience that drove them to need a more abstract strategy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, that example makes me wonder&#8230; is it fair to say they lack abstraction, or just that they are actively resisting/questioning the usefulness of the scientists&#8217; abstraction for their needs. They were able to name and question the abstraction, just chose not to use it. It reminds me of students who are classified as not being able to do algebra because they persist at guessing and checking. But if you ask them they say, well yeah, I could write an equation, but I got there quickly and more easily with my more concrete strategy. There was no experience that drove them to need a more abstract strategy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-576645</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-576645</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Noteworthy, out of the way reference for you:

Luria, A. R. (1976). &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books/about/Cognitive_Development.html?id=ZQX2WmMJUMcC&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cognitive Development: Its Cultural and Social Foundations&lt;/a&gt;.

In part of it he interviews farmers in early 20th century Russia that have a pre-scientific mindset -- essentially, they lack abstraction.

Q: What do a fish and a crow have in common?
A: A fish -- it lives in water. A crow flies. If the fish just lies on top of the water, the crow could peck at it. A crow can eat a fish but a fish can&#039;t eat a crow.
Q: Could you use one word for them both?
A: If you call them &quot;animals,&quot; that wouldn&#039;t be right. A fish isn&#039;t an animal and a crow isn&#039;t either. A crow can eat a fish but a fish can&#039;t eat a bird. A person can eat a fish but not a crow.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noteworthy, out of the way reference for you:</p>
<p>Luria, A. R. (1976). <a href="http://books.google.com/books/about/Cognitive_Development.html?id=ZQX2WmMJUMcC" rel="nofollow">Cognitive Development: Its Cultural and Social Foundations</a>.</p>
<p>In part of it he interviews farmers in early 20th century Russia that have a pre-scientific mindset &#8212; essentially, they lack abstraction.</p>
<p>Q: What do a fish and a crow have in common?<br />
A: A fish &#8212; it lives in water. A crow flies. If the fish just lies on top of the water, the crow could peck at it. A crow can eat a fish but a fish can&#8217;t eat a crow.<br />
Q: Could you use one word for them both?<br />
A: If you call them &#8220;animals,&#8221; that wouldn&#8217;t be right. A fish isn&#8217;t an animal and a crow isn&#8217;t either. A crow can eat a fish but a fish can&#8217;t eat a bird. A person can eat a fish but not a crow.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-574985</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 05:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-574985</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Quick update here. I got feedback from my other adviser, Pam Grossman, who generally agreed with the assessment of my commenters: too much of a laundry list, not enough of an argument, too few connective threads between my citation. All of which is useful.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick update here. I got feedback from my other adviser, Pam Grossman, who generally agreed with the assessment of my commenters: too much of a laundry list, not enough of an argument, too few connective threads between my citation. All of which is useful.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Arnon Avitzur		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-550359</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arnon Avitzur]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 03:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-550359</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan,
From my experience (currently at the proposal stage of my Math Ed PhD), you will always have more than type of feedback, which may come from different styles of writing and perspectives, but that should not discourage you.
I agree with Jo about the third form as well as the comment she made regarding the unwarranted claims.
With regards to the synthesis - you may decide to apply it or not. I do believe that most people in the field would consider your lit review stronger and more valuable to the field that way. 

Looking forward to reading more of your works as you move forward.

Arnon
p.s.
I did read the entire piece.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,<br />
From my experience (currently at the proposal stage of my Math Ed PhD), you will always have more than type of feedback, which may come from different styles of writing and perspectives, but that should not discourage you.<br />
I agree with Jo about the third form as well as the comment she made regarding the unwarranted claims.<br />
With regards to the synthesis &#8211; you may decide to apply it or not. I do believe that most people in the field would consider your lit review stronger and more valuable to the field that way. </p>
<p>Looking forward to reading more of your works as you move forward.</p>
<p>Arnon<br />
p.s.<br />
I did read the entire piece.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-550334</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 02:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-550334</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Met with my adviser (Boaler) today. She took exception to my use of the third person throughout the piece (ie. &quot;This review initially searched Google Scholar ....&quot;) She said the third person extracts me, my ideas, and my perspective out of the piece leaving behind the presumption of objectivity when in fact I&#039;m not.

She said I overstepped the literature with this line:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Without being conscious of and explicit about her own proficiency with abstraction, a teacher may undermine her students’ nascent powers of abstraction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What I said might be true. It might not. Either way, that line doesn&#039;t follow from the citation preceding it.

She didn&#039;t have any of the problems some of you mentioned here re structure or a disjointed city-by-city tour of the literature. It&#039;s never been clearly to me who actually read the piece, though, and who&#039;s just echoing Amanda Jansen&#039;s first comment. In any case, conflicting feedback has been a consistent feature of my graduate education.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Met with my adviser (Boaler) today. She took exception to my use of the third person throughout the piece (ie. &#8220;This review initially searched Google Scholar &#8230;.&#8221;) She said the third person extracts me, my ideas, and my perspective out of the piece leaving behind the presumption of objectivity when in fact I&#8217;m not.</p>
<p>She said I overstepped the literature with this line:</p>
<blockquote><p>Without being conscious of and explicit about her own proficiency with abstraction, a teacher may undermine her students’ nascent powers of abstraction.</p></blockquote>
<p>What I said might be true. It might not. Either way, that line doesn&#8217;t follow from the citation preceding it.</p>
<p>She didn&#8217;t have any of the problems some of you mentioned here re structure or a disjointed city-by-city tour of the literature. It&#8217;s never been clearly to me who actually read the piece, though, and who&#8217;s just echoing Amanda Jansen&#8217;s first comment. In any case, conflicting feedback has been a consistent feature of my graduate education.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Amanda Jansen		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-547902</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amanda Jansen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-547902</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m with Arnon on this -- it&#039;s like treating the literature like your qualitative data and analyzing across it to see themes that are present across the texts.

I am still super impressed that you&#039;re making your work public like this.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Arnon on this &#8212; it&#8217;s like treating the literature like your qualitative data and analyzing across it to see themes that are present across the texts.</p>
<p>I am still super impressed that you&#8217;re making your work public like this.</p>
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		<title>
		By: cb1601ej		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-547898</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cb1601ej]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-547898</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Freudenthal - Mathematics as an educational task
Tall, Sfard - Procepts, reification. Do make sure something new is created, there are already plenty of litreviews.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Freudenthal &#8211; Mathematics as an educational task<br />
Tall, Sfard &#8211; Procepts, reification. Do make sure something new is created, there are already plenty of litreviews.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Arnon Avitzur		</title>
		<link>/2012/loa-what-the-literature-says/#comment-547781</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arnon Avitzur]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=15419#comment-547781</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan,
I agree with Amanda with regards to the structure and goal of a lit review.

In general, I see a lit review as a product of a process of synthesis of the various sources and existing research through which you are learning (vs. just presenting) more about the topic you are reviewing. One of the challenging tasks when doing a lit review is to come up with relevant themes (to use Amanda&#039;s word) that can shed more light on the topic beyond just summarizing what has been said by other people. If at the end of your review, you have not generated new insights, then it means you have missed the analysis portion of the review. 

One way of looking at a lit review is to think of it as a research project in which the different studies from the past are your data and you are now trying to make sense of these data. This also means that you should have a question that guides your review (not as rigid as a &quot;research question&quot; but you can think about it as an &quot;inquiry question&quot;) and the sole purpose of the lit review then becomes to answer that question using whatever is out there. When such a question exists, it is also much easier to show the gaps in the literature and raise important issues that need to be examined.

I hope this is helpful,
Arnon]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,<br />
I agree with Amanda with regards to the structure and goal of a lit review.</p>
<p>In general, I see a lit review as a product of a process of synthesis of the various sources and existing research through which you are learning (vs. just presenting) more about the topic you are reviewing. One of the challenging tasks when doing a lit review is to come up with relevant themes (to use Amanda&#8217;s word) that can shed more light on the topic beyond just summarizing what has been said by other people. If at the end of your review, you have not generated new insights, then it means you have missed the analysis portion of the review. </p>
<p>One way of looking at a lit review is to think of it as a research project in which the different studies from the past are your data and you are now trying to make sense of these data. This also means that you should have a question that guides your review (not as rigid as a &#8220;research question&#8221; but you can think about it as an &#8220;inquiry question&#8221;) and the sole purpose of the lit review then becomes to answer that question using whatever is out there. When such a question exists, it is also much easier to show the gaps in the literature and raise important issues that need to be examined.</p>
<p>I hope this is helpful,<br />
Arnon</p>
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