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	Comments on: [Fake World] Conjectures	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1135655</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1135655</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@&lt;strong&gt;Gale&lt;/strong&gt;, certainly engagement isn&#039;t a binary on-off switch that can be thrown in the same direction for all students at all times. In every teacher&#039;s class, there are times that are less interesting for different students than for other students at other times. It&#039;s important for students to respond to those moments with perseverance or grit or whatever research-tested word we want to use. Still the question &quot;when will I use this in the real world&quot; remains one that should be handled carefully and perhaps not literally.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<strong>Gale</strong>, certainly engagement isn&#8217;t a binary on-off switch that can be thrown in the same direction for all students at all times. In every teacher&#8217;s class, there are times that are less interesting for different students than for other students at other times. It&#8217;s important for students to respond to those moments with perseverance or grit or whatever research-tested word we want to use. Still the question &#8220;when will I use this in the real world&#8221; remains one that should be handled carefully and perhaps not literally.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gale Naylor		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1134348</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gale Naylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1134348</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree the “when will I use this” question arises because students “[feel] bored and[/or] stupid.”  And as I was reading the comments to this post, I imagined myself teaching, but without enough engaging, puzzle-ful lessons to cover all topics and, therefore, still facing “the question.”  The vowels vs. variables argument might be a useful way to help students put their math learning in context.  As a matter of philosophy, I think it is important to introduce students to the idea that there is something valuable, something worth working for, outside the here and now.  They may not buy it the first time, or the nth time, but you plant the seed.  This is not an excuse for using boring, brain-deadening exercises and calling it teaching - not by a long shot.  I’m only saying I think there is a balance to be struck.  After (note the timing) you gain students’ trust by piquing their curiosity and showing them they can be successful, I think it’s also beneficial for them to learn to survive those possibly dry times between puzzle-ful lessons by realizing they are building up to something (a level of math fluency.)  Maybe comparing this process with learning to speak and write would be useful in making that connection for students?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree the “when will I use this” question arises because students “[feel] bored and[/or] stupid.”  And as I was reading the comments to this post, I imagined myself teaching, but without enough engaging, puzzle-ful lessons to cover all topics and, therefore, still facing “the question.”  The vowels vs. variables argument might be a useful way to help students put their math learning in context.  As a matter of philosophy, I think it is important to introduce students to the idea that there is something valuable, something worth working for, outside the here and now.  They may not buy it the first time, or the nth time, but you plant the seed.  This is not an excuse for using boring, brain-deadening exercises and calling it teaching &#8211; not by a long shot.  I’m only saying I think there is a balance to be struck.  After (note the timing) you gain students’ trust by piquing their curiosity and showing them they can be successful, I think it’s also beneficial for them to learn to survive those possibly dry times between puzzle-ful lessons by realizing they are building up to something (a level of math fluency.)  Maybe comparing this process with learning to speak and write would be useful in making that connection for students?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1111592</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1111592</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It was important for me to realize that when students ask &quot;When will I ever use this?&quot; they&#039;re making a complaint about their present (feeling bored and stupid) as much as they&#039;re asking a literal question about their future.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was important for me to realize that when students ask &#8220;When will I ever use this?&#8221; they&#8217;re making a complaint about their present (feeling bored and stupid) as much as they&#8217;re asking a literal question about their future.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joe Schwartz		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1111349</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe Schwartz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1111349</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gary,
 “Where will I ever use this math?” is not an immature question, and is not related to a question like “Where will I ever use these vowels?”  The math that these disaffected kids are talking about is not what they learned in kindergarten, how to count or recognize numerals.  They’re talking about the soul crushing exercises they are asked to complete in their pre-algebra classes, the inane word problems, or the torture they undergo dividing 4 and 5 digit dividends by 2 and 3 digit divisors over and over again.  In that context it’s a perfectly reasonable question and one that has no good answer.  They weren&#039;t born hating math, but they really hate math now.  That&#039;s a shame.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary,<br />
 “Where will I ever use this math?” is not an immature question, and is not related to a question like “Where will I ever use these vowels?”  The math that these disaffected kids are talking about is not what they learned in kindergarten, how to count or recognize numerals.  They’re talking about the soul crushing exercises they are asked to complete in their pre-algebra classes, the inane word problems, or the torture they undergo dividing 4 and 5 digit dividends by 2 and 3 digit divisors over and over again.  In that context it’s a perfectly reasonable question and one that has no good answer.  They weren&#8217;t born hating math, but they really hate math now.  That&#8217;s a shame.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Annie Forest		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1111088</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Annie Forest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Nov 2013 16:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1111088</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hearing over and over from students &quot;When will I ever use this?&quot; can be frustrating and it&#039;s easy to blame the students either for their lack of motivation or their immaturity.  However, this bad attitude toward math and math education is so deep rooted in our culture that it is socially acceptable (if not preferable) to dislike math.  Just look on social media for lots of examples of &quot;funny&quot; t-shirts and e-card proclaiming, &quot;another day went by and I didn&#039;t use algebra once,&quot; as if this is a justification for students dislike mathematics and dismiss it as unimportant.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hearing over and over from students &#8220;When will I ever use this?&#8221; can be frustrating and it&#8217;s easy to blame the students either for their lack of motivation or their immaturity.  However, this bad attitude toward math and math education is so deep rooted in our culture that it is socially acceptable (if not preferable) to dislike math.  Just look on social media for lots of examples of &#8220;funny&#8221; t-shirts and e-card proclaiming, &#8220;another day went by and I didn&#8217;t use algebra once,&#8221; as if this is a justification for students dislike mathematics and dismiss it as unimportant.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gary Cavender		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1108202</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Cavender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1108202</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry, Last Comment: The question “Where will I ever use this math?” is usually an immature question…

Imagine the kindergartner asking “Where will I ever use the vowels?”  One could answer that they are part of a cute ABC song or the ABC’s lead to words which leads to phrases which leads to sentences which leads to paragraphs which leads to pages which leads to articles which leads to books… But what if the youngster does not understand words yet? How does this young student conceptualize pages of words? Truthfully, trust in a qualified/competent teacher or parent is required. At some point reading and writing is part of everyday living just like different levels of math is part of “everyday chemistry” or “everyday economics” or “everyday nuclear physics”.  How high should I go in math? Maybe the better question is where do you want to stop and limit your career choices or limit your ability to function? At what level do you want to limit yourself? What are your transitional goals? Do you WANT TO BE READY FOR THE NEXT LEVEL? Practicing the ABC’s and words leads to a flow and understanding of reading and writing just like proper algebra understanding leads to a flow and understanding of higher level math, science, business, engineering, etc. I contend that the biggest puzzle to solve is will I as a student be ready for the next level?

When the questioning student looking for a way out of working asks, “Where will I ever use this math?” I often kindly reply that maybe they don’t need the math at all, but others need it to be ready for this or that or the next level…]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Last Comment: The question “Where will I ever use this math?” is usually an immature question…</p>
<p>Imagine the kindergartner asking “Where will I ever use the vowels?”  One could answer that they are part of a cute ABC song or the ABC’s lead to words which leads to phrases which leads to sentences which leads to paragraphs which leads to pages which leads to articles which leads to books… But what if the youngster does not understand words yet? How does this young student conceptualize pages of words? Truthfully, trust in a qualified/competent teacher or parent is required. At some point reading and writing is part of everyday living just like different levels of math is part of “everyday chemistry” or “everyday economics” or “everyday nuclear physics”.  How high should I go in math? Maybe the better question is where do you want to stop and limit your career choices or limit your ability to function? At what level do you want to limit yourself? What are your transitional goals? Do you WANT TO BE READY FOR THE NEXT LEVEL? Practicing the ABC’s and words leads to a flow and understanding of reading and writing just like proper algebra understanding leads to a flow and understanding of higher level math, science, business, engineering, etc. I contend that the biggest puzzle to solve is will I as a student be ready for the next level?</p>
<p>When the questioning student looking for a way out of working asks, “Where will I ever use this math?” I often kindly reply that maybe they don’t need the math at all, but others need it to be ready for this or that or the next level…</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1104261</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Nov 2013 02:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1104261</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Jayanthi&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;So the question that comes to mind for me now is what puzzles students?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Great question! For the second time in a day, &lt;a href=&quot;/?p=18186#comment-1103496&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;m going to punt&lt;/a&gt;. Believe me we&#039;ll pick this back up, but for now I&#039;d encourage you to look at puzzles you enjoy and ask &quot;why?&quot; For a starter, here&#039;s Ben Orlin &lt;a href=&quot;http://mathwithbaddrawings.com/2013/11/18/tic-tac-toe-puzzles-and-the-difference-between-a-puzzle-and-a-game/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;talking about Tic Tac Toe&lt;/a&gt;. That&#039;s a puzzle that&#039;s fake from skin to bone, but which doesn&#039;t struggle to engage the public.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Jayanthi</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>So the question that comes to mind for me now is what puzzles students?</p></blockquote>
<p>Great question! For the second time in a day, <a href="/?p=18186#comment-1103496" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;m going to punt</a>. Believe me we&#8217;ll pick this back up, but for now I&#8217;d encourage you to look at puzzles you enjoy and ask &#8220;why?&#8221; For a starter, here&#8217;s Ben Orlin <a href="http://mathwithbaddrawings.com/2013/11/18/tic-tac-toe-puzzles-and-the-difference-between-a-puzzle-and-a-game/" rel="nofollow">talking about Tic Tac Toe</a>. That&#8217;s a puzzle that&#8217;s fake from skin to bone, but which doesn&#8217;t struggle to engage the public.</p>
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		<title>
		By: l hodge		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1103634</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[l hodge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Nov 2013 23:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1103634</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[An appropriate number sequence on the chalk board is engaging for most people of any age.  It is not externally verifiable and doesn&#039;t have anything to do with day to day experiences.

My guess is that it is engaging because it is very obviously about figuring out how something works, it seems like it is possible to figure it out, and there is immediate and clear feedback.

With so much math, real or fake world, the problem or dilemma involved isn&#039;t presented very clearly (or isn&#039;t even there) and it is cumbersome to get feedback on your answer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An appropriate number sequence on the chalk board is engaging for most people of any age.  It is not externally verifiable and doesn&#8217;t have anything to do with day to day experiences.</p>
<p>My guess is that it is engaging because it is very obviously about figuring out how something works, it seems like it is possible to figure it out, and there is immediate and clear feedback.</p>
<p>With so much math, real or fake world, the problem or dilemma involved isn&#8217;t presented very clearly (or isn&#8217;t even there) and it is cumbersome to get feedback on your answer.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayanthi		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1103615</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayanthi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Nov 2013 23:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1103615</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is such an interesting conversation!  This all makes me wonder about the point of having students solve “real world” problems–and I have to admit that this is something that I find myself drawn toward.  Wanting students to be able use math as a way to understand and impact their surroundings.  To see math as something that is obviously relevant to their lives.  

But this conversation is making me wonder what it even means for something to be relevant to our lives.  I know what I think is relevant to students.  I realize though, that what students want for themselves, is maybe a better measurement of relevancy.  It may not be what I want for them, but if it is of interest to them, then it is relevant.  

Dan, you say, “The point of math class is to build a student&#039;s capacity to puzzle and unpuzzle herself — no matter what form those puzzles take.  Find those puzzles in the real world, the fake world, the job world, or any other world — it doesn&#039;t matter.”  So the question that comes to mind for me now is what puzzles students?  I don’t think that just any puzzle will puzzle students.  But maybe if something seems important enough, absurd enough, or fascinating enough, it may puzzle a student.  And it may be more motivating if it is a puzzle that seems worth solving.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is such an interesting conversation!  This all makes me wonder about the point of having students solve “real world” problems–and I have to admit that this is something that I find myself drawn toward.  Wanting students to be able use math as a way to understand and impact their surroundings.  To see math as something that is obviously relevant to their lives.  </p>
<p>But this conversation is making me wonder what it even means for something to be relevant to our lives.  I know what I think is relevant to students.  I realize though, that what students want for themselves, is maybe a better measurement of relevancy.  It may not be what I want for them, but if it is of interest to them, then it is relevant.  </p>
<p>Dan, you say, “The point of math class is to build a student&#8217;s capacity to puzzle and unpuzzle herself — no matter what form those puzzles take.  Find those puzzles in the real world, the fake world, the job world, or any other world — it doesn&#8217;t matter.”  So the question that comes to mind for me now is what puzzles students?  I don’t think that just any puzzle will puzzle students.  But maybe if something seems important enough, absurd enough, or fascinating enough, it may puzzle a student.  And it may be more motivating if it is a puzzle that seems worth solving.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/fake-world-conjectures/#comment-1103496</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=18186#comment-1103496</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Anna&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I feel that it does matter what types of problems we give them to consider. You mention that teachers can “Find those puzzles in the real world, the fake world, the job world, or any other world — it doesn’t matter.” If it doesn’t matter what types of puzzles we give them, how would you propose motivating students to engage if they do find the work terribly disconnected to their lives?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hi Anna, thanks for the comment. Just to clarify: I think the type of puzzle we give students matters very much. There are satisfying puzzles and frustrating puzzles. My point is that it&#039;s possible to form those puzzles from numbers, variables, cats, kittens, fake and real-world objects alike.

I realize this really begs the question: &quot;how do you create the satisfying kind?&quot;

I&#039;ll articulate some thoughts about that at some point in this series. In the meantime, I&#039;d encourage you to read Megan Schmidt&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://mathybeagle.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/nrich-factors-and-multiples-puzzle/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;recent post on a math task that is utterly fake&lt;/a&gt; — nothing real about it — that her students seemed to enjoy quite a bit. Not honors kids either. Kids who struggle with math. Any thoughts on what made it so engaging in spite of its fakeness? I have a couple but I&#039;d rather hear yours.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Anna</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>I feel that it does matter what types of problems we give them to consider. You mention that teachers can “Find those puzzles in the real world, the fake world, the job world, or any other world — it doesn’t matter.” If it doesn’t matter what types of puzzles we give them, how would you propose motivating students to engage if they do find the work terribly disconnected to their lives?</p></blockquote>
<p>Hi Anna, thanks for the comment. Just to clarify: I think the type of puzzle we give students matters very much. There are satisfying puzzles and frustrating puzzles. My point is that it&#8217;s possible to form those puzzles from numbers, variables, cats, kittens, fake and real-world objects alike.</p>
<p>I realize this really begs the question: &#8220;how do you create the satisfying kind?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll articulate some thoughts about that at some point in this series. In the meantime, I&#8217;d encourage you to read Megan Schmidt&#8217;s <a href="http://mathybeagle.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/nrich-factors-and-multiples-puzzle/" rel="nofollow">recent post on a math task that is utterly fake</a> — nothing real about it — that her students seemed to enjoy quite a bit. Not honors kids either. Kids who struggle with math. Any thoughts on what made it so engaging in spite of its fakeness? I have a couple but I&#8217;d rather hear yours.</p>
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