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	Comments on: [Future Text] Ice Cream Stand	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 May 2013 17:25:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Lauren		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-851382</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lauren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 May 2013 17:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-851382</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[From a school lacking technology-- You could do this with a class set of transparency sheets overlapping.  No computer required.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From a school lacking technology&#8211; You could do this with a class set of transparency sheets overlapping.  No computer required.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fawn Nguyen		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-761651</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fawn Nguyen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-761651</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jennifer Wilson asked her students of a similar task at http://easingthehurrysyndrome.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/reflections-on-the-fire-hydrant/

She also mentioned extending this question to include a 4th building (or ice cream stand as in your example).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennifer Wilson asked her students of a similar task at <a href="http://easingthehurrysyndrome.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/reflections-on-the-fire-hydrant/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://easingthehurrysyndrome.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/reflections-on-the-fire-hydrant/</a></p>
<p>She also mentioned extending this question to include a 4th building (or ice cream stand as in your example).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-760663</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Mar 2013 21:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-760663</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Chris&lt;/strong&gt; is a student of Freudenthal who believed very similarly to Gardiner (Freudenthal: &quot;The fantasy world of fairy tales and even the formal world of mathematics can be very suitable contexts for a problem, as long as they are real in the student&#039;s mind.&quot;) which makes his objection all the more curious.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Chris</strong> is a student of Freudenthal who believed very similarly to Gardiner (Freudenthal: &#8220;The fantasy world of fairy tales and even the formal world of mathematics can be very suitable contexts for a problem, as long as they are real in the student&#8217;s mind.&#8221;) which makes his objection all the more curious.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Serra		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-760612</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Serra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Mar 2013 20:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-760612</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[An interesting issue for discussion:
&quot;there is something pseudo-contextual about this task.&quot; 

I would submit, MOST tasks presented in our math classes are pseudo-contextural and many of these task are so by necessity. 
I&#039;ve quoted Anthony Gardiner Professor of Mathematics at the University of Birmingham on Dan&#039;s blog once before but here it is again:

&quot;Good mathematical problems are necessarily artificial. In contrast, &quot;realistic&quot; problems tend to elicit &quot;realistic&quot; responses involving little or no mathematics. In mathematics teaching, what matters is not whether a problem is plausibly real or artificial, but whether it is such that pupils are prepared to enter into the spirit of the mental world it conjures up.&quot;
								–A. Gardiner 

I don&#039;t think any one believes that a person in the park will pull out a map of the park, locate the three ice cream stands on the map, construct the perpendicular bisectors of the segments connecting the three points to create the three Voronoi regions and then determine which region they are standing in to decide which ice cream stand to go to enjoy their cool reward. A realistic response is just what the voting is doing, students &quot;eyeballing&quot; their guesses. There is no mathematics but &quot;eyeballing&quot; is a reasonable problem solving approach to a realistic situation. 

I don&#039;t think we need to overly concern ourselves with how realistic a situation is that we are presenting to our students. A good teacher should be able to mix pseudo-realistic, fantasy, and puzzling situations to create curiosity or perplexity, &quot;such that pupils are prepared to enter into the spirit of the mental world it conjures up.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting issue for discussion:<br />
&#8220;there is something pseudo-contextual about this task.&#8221; </p>
<p>I would submit, MOST tasks presented in our math classes are pseudo-contextural and many of these task are so by necessity.<br />
I&#8217;ve quoted Anthony Gardiner Professor of Mathematics at the University of Birmingham on Dan&#8217;s blog once before but here it is again:</p>
<p>&#8220;Good mathematical problems are necessarily artificial. In contrast, &#8220;realistic&#8221; problems tend to elicit &#8220;realistic&#8221; responses involving little or no mathematics. In mathematics teaching, what matters is not whether a problem is plausibly real or artificial, but whether it is such that pupils are prepared to enter into the spirit of the mental world it conjures up.&#8221;<br />
								–A. Gardiner </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think any one believes that a person in the park will pull out a map of the park, locate the three ice cream stands on the map, construct the perpendicular bisectors of the segments connecting the three points to create the three Voronoi regions and then determine which region they are standing in to decide which ice cream stand to go to enjoy their cool reward. A realistic response is just what the voting is doing, students &#8220;eyeballing&#8221; their guesses. There is no mathematics but &#8220;eyeballing&#8221; is a reasonable problem solving approach to a realistic situation. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we need to overly concern ourselves with how realistic a situation is that we are presenting to our students. A good teacher should be able to mix pseudo-realistic, fantasy, and puzzling situations to create curiosity or perplexity, &#8220;such that pupils are prepared to enter into the spirit of the mental world it conjures up.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-760567</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-760567</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would say that the abstraction needs to be formalized. Give students some (virtual) tools to make a geometric construction. Keep the interaction, and what others did in there. Check the geometric construction (which can be done by linking to a proof checker). I think the line that is &#039;off&#039; shows that a formalization is necessary. So I would add some visual misconceptions.

BTW, I would say there is something pseudo-contextual about this task. Of course the circumcenter is of no use for someone standing in a park, but I doubt that geometric distance to a point is the main consideration for someone any way. Things like &#039;where is my car?&#039;, &#039;where do I want to go after my ice cream&#039;, &#039;are people playing football over there or not&#039; are probably more important in determining what stand to go to.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that the abstraction needs to be formalized. Give students some (virtual) tools to make a geometric construction. Keep the interaction, and what others did in there. Check the geometric construction (which can be done by linking to a proof checker). I think the line that is &#8216;off&#8217; shows that a formalization is necessary. So I would add some visual misconceptions.</p>
<p>BTW, I would say there is something pseudo-contextual about this task. Of course the circumcenter is of no use for someone standing in a park, but I doubt that geometric distance to a point is the main consideration for someone any way. Things like &#8216;where is my car?&#8217;, &#8216;where do I want to go after my ice cream&#8217;, &#8216;are people playing football over there or not&#8217; are probably more important in determining what stand to go to.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-757911</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Mar 2013 22:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-757911</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;James Key&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I was thinking the same thing. At no time did anyone ask, “Which point in the park is the same distance from all 3 stands?”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Chris Robinson &lt;a href=&quot;https://twitter.com/absvalteaching/status/314503129011994624&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;asked the same thing&lt;/a&gt;. See, the circumcenter, on its own, is of no use to the person standing in the park. This lesson may head in that direction (all you&#039;re seeing is a preface) or in any of the three directions you outlined earlier. But the circumcenter wouldn&#039;t be an immediate concern to anybody but a math teacher.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>James Key</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>I was thinking the same thing. At no time did anyone ask, “Which point in the park is the same distance from all 3 stands?”</p></blockquote>
<p>Chris Robinson <a href="https://twitter.com/absvalteaching/status/314503129011994624" rel="nofollow">asked the same thing</a>. See, the circumcenter, on its own, is of no use to the person standing in the park. This lesson may head in that direction (all you&#8217;re seeing is a preface) or in any of the three directions you outlined earlier. But the circumcenter wouldn&#8217;t be an immediate concern to anybody but a math teacher.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James Key		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-757864</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Key]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-757864</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Michael: &quot;I like the activity...however I feel it is more about regions (Voronoi diagrams) rather than circumcenter.&quot;

I was thinking the same thing.  At no time did anyone ask, &quot;Which point in the park is the same distance from all 3 stands?&quot;

@Dan: &quot;But if you&#039;d like to use Kate&#039;s tweet to motivate the need for the circumcenter, to give students a reason to care about the circumcenter, we&#039;ll need to start much lower on the ladder of abstraction.&quot;

As Michael points, out this activity did not make me &quot;need&quot; the circumcenter.  I found the activity interesting and fun, and I&#039;m excited about what you and Dave are working on.  But this just goes to show that we can have cool digital textbooks, with engaging prompts, compiled responses, etc etc -- and *still* end up falling short *if we don&#039;t ask the right questions.*  The questions should feel logical and natural for the student.

Here is an easy remedy for your task.  Ask students:

#1. Which points in the park are the same distance from stands A and B?  Paint &#039;em.

#2. Which points...from stands B and C?  Paint &#039;em.

#3. Which points...from all 3 stands?  Paint.

Now the teacher follows up with a lesson on the perpendicular bisector, answering the question &quot;How do we know the exact right answer?&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Michael: &#8220;I like the activity&#8230;however I feel it is more about regions (Voronoi diagrams) rather than circumcenter.&#8221;</p>
<p>I was thinking the same thing.  At no time did anyone ask, &#8220;Which point in the park is the same distance from all 3 stands?&#8221;</p>
<p>@Dan: &#8220;But if you&#8217;d like to use Kate&#8217;s tweet to motivate the need for the circumcenter, to give students a reason to care about the circumcenter, we&#8217;ll need to start much lower on the ladder of abstraction.&#8221;</p>
<p>As Michael points, out this activity did not make me &#8220;need&#8221; the circumcenter.  I found the activity interesting and fun, and I&#8217;m excited about what you and Dave are working on.  But this just goes to show that we can have cool digital textbooks, with engaging prompts, compiled responses, etc etc &#8212; and *still* end up falling short *if we don&#8217;t ask the right questions.*  The questions should feel logical and natural for the student.</p>
<p>Here is an easy remedy for your task.  Ask students:</p>
<p>#1. Which points in the park are the same distance from stands A and B?  Paint &#8217;em.</p>
<p>#2. Which points&#8230;from stands B and C?  Paint &#8217;em.</p>
<p>#3. Which points&#8230;from all 3 stands?  Paint.</p>
<p>Now the teacher follows up with a lesson on the perpendicular bisector, answering the question &#8220;How do we know the exact right answer?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brendan Murphy		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-756204</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan Murphy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 11:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-756204</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My teachers will ask why not use three transparencies one with shops A and B, A and C and B and C. On each sheet color in the half of the park which you would go to which ice cream stand. Then stack them up? Identify the point where you could go to any ice cream stand.  

Would this be better or worse? How would it effect adding a 4th ice cream stand?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My teachers will ask why not use three transparencies one with shops A and B, A and C and B and C. On each sheet color in the half of the park which you would go to which ice cream stand. Then stack them up? Identify the point where you could go to any ice cream stand.  </p>
<p>Would this be better or worse? How would it effect adding a 4th ice cream stand?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Serra		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-755442</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Serra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-755442</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like the activity of guessing, collecting all the guesses, and painting regions. However I feel it is more about regions (Voronoi diagrams) rather than circumcenter. This activity leads effortlessly to asking &quot;What about four points?&quot;  Which has nothing to do with points of concurrency but definitely back to the key idea of a perpendicular bisector dividing a region into two regions so that any point in one region is always closer to the one endpoint of the segment in that region.  Which is nicely extended to 3, 4, 5, ... n points. Ten years ago I probably would have asked, given two points A and B (two post offices?), how would you divide the region into two regions so that any point in the region containing point A is closer to A than B and the same for point B. Then months later toss out the problems of three points (fire stations?) and then four points (Starbucks?) in the plane. (See Discovering Geometry 4th edition page 152 exercise 11, followed by page 165 exercise 13). Rather than scaffolding, now I see the greater value of jumping right to the more perplexing problem of three or four points and let them struggle.  
Was the direct investigation of looking for the point in the park that was equally distant from all three (take your pick: entrances, water fountains, bathrooms, ...) points, too boring?  You&#039;d have your Act 1 with students voting, compiling all votes and see who was closest and how close the aggregate voting gets to actual circumcenter. A nice follow up for the circumcenter would be to ask is the circumscribed circle the smallest disk that can cover any triangle? 
Another direct investigation that would directly get at the incenter would be to ask &quot;What is the largest disk that you can get that would fit in a triangular region and where would you place the center of the disk? 
Again, the important teacher part after the class voting is to make sure the idea is gotten across that the &quot;answer&quot; is not correct because that is what the majority voted for.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the activity of guessing, collecting all the guesses, and painting regions. However I feel it is more about regions (Voronoi diagrams) rather than circumcenter. This activity leads effortlessly to asking &#8220;What about four points?&#8221;  Which has nothing to do with points of concurrency but definitely back to the key idea of a perpendicular bisector dividing a region into two regions so that any point in one region is always closer to the one endpoint of the segment in that region.  Which is nicely extended to 3, 4, 5, &#8230; n points. Ten years ago I probably would have asked, given two points A and B (two post offices?), how would you divide the region into two regions so that any point in the region containing point A is closer to A than B and the same for point B. Then months later toss out the problems of three points (fire stations?) and then four points (Starbucks?) in the plane. (See Discovering Geometry 4th edition page 152 exercise 11, followed by page 165 exercise 13). Rather than scaffolding, now I see the greater value of jumping right to the more perplexing problem of three or four points and let them struggle.<br />
Was the direct investigation of looking for the point in the park that was equally distant from all three (take your pick: entrances, water fountains, bathrooms, &#8230;) points, too boring?  You&#8217;d have your Act 1 with students voting, compiling all votes and see who was closest and how close the aggregate voting gets to actual circumcenter. A nice follow up for the circumcenter would be to ask is the circumscribed circle the smallest disk that can cover any triangle?<br />
Another direct investigation that would directly get at the incenter would be to ask &#8220;What is the largest disk that you can get that would fit in a triangular region and where would you place the center of the disk?<br />
Again, the important teacher part after the class voting is to make sure the idea is gotten across that the &#8220;answer&#8221; is not correct because that is what the majority voted for.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Wees		</title>
		<link>/2013/future-text-ice-cream-stand/#comment-755276</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Wees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=16383#comment-755276</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The paintbrushes seem a bit thick to me, so I wonder what effect this has on how carefully people choose where to shade their regions. 

It seems to me that there may be another way to ask this question (after asking people to paint the field) by dragging a central point around and automatically adjusting the painted regions. See this Geogebra file I created, for example: http://davidwees.com/geogebra/icecreamstand

I think we should ask important questions like &quot;what is a good way of representing the optimal solution for each ice cream stand&quot; with multiple representations so that our students can abstract beyond the limitations of whichever tool they use.

I love the task, and I&#039;d like to extend it a bit further, and to add a step to the ladder of abstraction between the painting representation, and coming up with the important information in order to be able to find a solution.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The paintbrushes seem a bit thick to me, so I wonder what effect this has on how carefully people choose where to shade their regions. </p>
<p>It seems to me that there may be another way to ask this question (after asking people to paint the field) by dragging a central point around and automatically adjusting the painted regions. See this Geogebra file I created, for example: <a href="http://davidwees.com/geogebra/icecreamstand" rel="nofollow ugc">http://davidwees.com/geogebra/icecreamstand</a></p>
<p>I think we should ask important questions like &#8220;what is a good way of representing the optimal solution for each ice cream stand&#8221; with multiple representations so that our students can abstract beyond the limitations of whichever tool they use.</p>
<p>I love the task, and I&#8217;d like to extend it a bit further, and to add a step to the ladder of abstraction between the painting representation, and coming up with the important information in order to be able to find a solution.</p>
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