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	Comments on: [Makeover] Internet Plans	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
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		By: Systems of Equations: Elimination Method &#124; When Math Happens		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-983839</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Systems of Equations: Elimination Method &#124; When Math Happens]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-983839</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Internet Plans [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Internet Plans [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kyle Pearce		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-973244</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle Pearce]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-973244</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great question as always, Dan. Just reading the comments will prove that questioning along these same lines will improve the discussion and debates in your classroom. Being comfortable with not always knowing the &quot;answer&quot; allows for your students to feel like their opinions count. 

I have seen a tremendous improvement in my classroom since applying your approach. Thanks as always!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great question as always, Dan. Just reading the comments will prove that questioning along these same lines will improve the discussion and debates in your classroom. Being comfortable with not always knowing the &#8220;answer&#8221; allows for your students to feel like their opinions count. </p>
<p>I have seen a tremendous improvement in my classroom since applying your approach. Thanks as always!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-971922</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-971922</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a good question, &lt;strong&gt;Dina&lt;/strong&gt;. I&#039;m afraid it&#039;s outside my expertise. Ben Rimes has been tackling the issue, though. Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.techsavvyed.net/archives/2352&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;his introductory post&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a good question, <strong>Dina</strong>. I&#8217;m afraid it&#8217;s outside my expertise. Ben Rimes has been tackling the issue, though. Here&#8217;s <a href="http://www.techsavvyed.net/archives/2352" rel="nofollow">his introductory post</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dina		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-971356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dina]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 05:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-971356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is great. I just watched your math makeover video. I think you are so right. I do believe that CCSS will move to more patient problem solving as student won&#039;t be looking to bubble an answer anymore.  How do you think this could apply to Elementary math?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is great. I just watched your math makeover video. I think you are so right. I do believe that CCSS will move to more patient problem solving as student won&#8217;t be looking to bubble an answer anymore.  How do you think this could apply to Elementary math?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-969810</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 14:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-969810</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I promoted these lines from &lt;strong&gt;Matt H., Stephanie Reilly, Jason Dyer, L Hodge, and Timfc&lt;/strong&gt; up the main post because I think they illustrate what&#039;s fun, useful, and difficult about modeling:

&lt;a href=&quot;/?p=17391#comment-967474&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Matt H&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The equation for plan A doesn’t take into account the possibility of working out “More than 24â€³ days in a month&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;/?p=17391#comment-967692&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stephanie Reilly&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Plan C is a one-time charge of $199 and you get to go for 12 months, right? I think I would graph that as a straight line at y=199 (for 0-12 months) and then a straight line at $398 for 13-24 months.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;/?p=17391#comment-967740&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jason Dyer&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Note the fine print which says you can’t sign up for less than 12 months on plan A. All three plans also seem to have a $29 maintenance fee per-year and a $10 card fee.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;/?p=17391#comment-967787&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;l hodge&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The fitness decision depends a lot on how much value you place on the different add-ons for each plan. These details are harder to quantify and not incorporated into the graphical model (the model stinks).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;/?p=17391#comment-967982&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Timfc&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;we only graph them as nice continuous linear equations because it makes our lives easier, but we should really graph them as piecewise linear?

I mean, it’s not like you can pay for pi months (although how awesome would that be?) and so evaluating the equation at pi is not going to give an output that’s meaningful. Maybe that’s the next step for students?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Out of all of these, I think &lt;strong&gt;Stephanie&#039;s&lt;/strong&gt; is the most devastating to my case. Elsewhere, I tried to frame the issue solely in terms of &lt;em&gt;price&lt;/em&gt;, which was an attempt to mollify some of the unquantifiable perks (eg. &quot;you can use &lt;em&gt;every&lt;/em&gt; club.&quot;).

That mollification might&#039;ve resulted in a lousy model, but &lt;em&gt;that&#039;s the point of modeling&lt;/em&gt;. You simply the world down to math. You work with the math. And then you recontextualize the math to the world. And you ask yourself, &quot;Did we do damage?&quot;

PS. I like &lt;strong&gt;Jason&#039;s&lt;/strong&gt; observation that there&#039;s &lt;em&gt;another&lt;/em&gt; hidden flat fee for every plan. (A fee that recurs yearly too, but never mind that for a second.) It&#039;d be fun to drop that fine print on students who&#039;d finished the original problem, let them get pissed and struggle for a second, and then find out it doesn&#039;t change any of the outcomes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I promoted these lines from <strong>Matt H., Stephanie Reilly, Jason Dyer, L Hodge, and Timfc</strong> up the main post because I think they illustrate what&#8217;s fun, useful, and difficult about modeling:</p>
<p><a href="/?p=17391#comment-967474" rel="nofollow">Matt H</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>The equation for plan A doesn’t take into account the possibility of working out “More than 24â€³ days in a month</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="/?p=17391#comment-967692" rel="nofollow">Stephanie Reilly</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Plan C is a one-time charge of $199 and you get to go for 12 months, right? I think I would graph that as a straight line at y=199 (for 0-12 months) and then a straight line at $398 for 13-24 months.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="/?p=17391#comment-967740" rel="nofollow">Jason Dyer</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Note the fine print which says you can’t sign up for less than 12 months on plan A. All three plans also seem to have a $29 maintenance fee per-year and a $10 card fee.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="/?p=17391#comment-967787" rel="nofollow">l hodge</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>The fitness decision depends a lot on how much value you place on the different add-ons for each plan. These details are harder to quantify and not incorporated into the graphical model (the model stinks).</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="/?p=17391#comment-967982" rel="nofollow">Timfc</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>we only graph them as nice continuous linear equations because it makes our lives easier, but we should really graph them as piecewise linear?</p>
<p>I mean, it’s not like you can pay for pi months (although how awesome would that be?) and so evaluating the equation at pi is not going to give an output that’s meaningful. Maybe that’s the next step for students?</p></blockquote>
<p>Out of all of these, I think <strong>Stephanie&#8217;s</strong> is the most devastating to my case. Elsewhere, I tried to frame the issue solely in terms of <em>price</em>, which was an attempt to mollify some of the unquantifiable perks (eg. &#8220;you can use <em>every</em> club.&#8221;).</p>
<p>That mollification might&#8217;ve resulted in a lousy model, but <em>that&#8217;s the point of modeling</em>. You simply the world down to math. You work with the math. And then you recontextualize the math to the world. And you ask yourself, &#8220;Did we do damage?&#8221;</p>
<p>PS. I like <strong>Jason&#8217;s</strong> observation that there&#8217;s <em>another</em> hidden flat fee for every plan. (A fee that recurs yearly too, but never mind that for a second.) It&#8217;d be fun to drop that fine print on students who&#8217;d finished the original problem, let them get pissed and struggle for a second, and then find out it doesn&#8217;t change any of the outcomes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Funkhouser		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-969051</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Funkhouser]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-969051</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One thing I rarely see in teaching the complexity of systems is emphasizing the simple question that is revealed half way through solving algebraically.  

To make my point, I&#039;ll use the textbook values of $2.25 per hour and 2.95 per hour.  Perhaps if was asked, &quot;How would the situation be different if the prices were $9.50 and $10.20 per hour?&quot; or &quot;15.21 and 15.91&quot;?  The answer is, of course, they are no different because the differences in the rates are the same.

We want students to have &quot;number sense&quot; but don&#039;t take the questioning to the common sense level of, &quot;How much are you saving each month with one plan over another?&quot;

You probably see my point, that the complexity of y1=2.25x + 9.95 and y2=2.95x really boils down to the savings equation of 0.7x=9.95 which is never brought to light in the textbook or your examples.  All the complexity of solving systems and graphing multiple equations really boils down to the simpler question of &quot;how much are you saving each month with one plan over the other?&quot;

Perhaps instead of asking students to only justify the property used for each step of solving but also &quot;what does this mean in terms of the situation?&quot; would deepen understanding.

This might be a lot of concern over a small point, but it is a symptom of math education that seems to prevail: believing complex problems are difficult to solve rather than complex problems often disguise much simpler situations.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I rarely see in teaching the complexity of systems is emphasizing the simple question that is revealed half way through solving algebraically.  </p>
<p>To make my point, I&#8217;ll use the textbook values of $2.25 per hour and 2.95 per hour.  Perhaps if was asked, &#8220;How would the situation be different if the prices were $9.50 and $10.20 per hour?&#8221; or &#8220;15.21 and 15.91&#8221;?  The answer is, of course, they are no different because the differences in the rates are the same.</p>
<p>We want students to have &#8220;number sense&#8221; but don&#8217;t take the questioning to the common sense level of, &#8220;How much are you saving each month with one plan over another?&#8221;</p>
<p>You probably see my point, that the complexity of y1=2.25x + 9.95 and y2=2.95x really boils down to the savings equation of 0.7x=9.95 which is never brought to light in the textbook or your examples.  All the complexity of solving systems and graphing multiple equations really boils down to the simpler question of &#8220;how much are you saving each month with one plan over the other?&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps instead of asking students to only justify the property used for each step of solving but also &#8220;what does this mean in terms of the situation?&#8221; would deepen understanding.</p>
<p>This might be a lot of concern over a small point, but it is a symptom of math education that seems to prevail: believing complex problems are difficult to solve rather than complex problems often disguise much simpler situations.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William Carey		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-968802</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William Carey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 13:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-968802</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hmm - maybe a better way of saying what I was trying to say is that starting with the concrete and moving to the abstract is vital in mathematical modeling, and moving from an answer in the abstract to an answer that speaks to some actual concrete audience is a vital part of mathematical modeling too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm &#8211; maybe a better way of saying what I was trying to say is that starting with the concrete and moving to the abstract is vital in mathematical modeling, and moving from an answer in the abstract to an answer that speaks to some actual concrete audience is a vital part of mathematical modeling too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William Carey		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-968799</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William Carey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 13:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-968799</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#062; So when they write down &quot;x = 12.3â€³ and circle it, I can say, &quot;Come on, man. They&#039;re never going to understand that. You have to spell it out for them.

This is vital, and something we math teachers don&#039;t often think about. Mathematical modeling is an exercise in rhetoric; the goal is to persuade someone (often yourself!) of some conclusion. The arguments we use are different from, say, an argument in history, but they&#039;re arguments nonetheless. It&#039;s vital to give students a real audience that they&#039;re communicating to, and especially vital that the audience not always be &quot;their math teacher&quot;.

For this made-over problem, I&#039;d make the audience their parents (or some other grown-ups), who a) control the money decisions and b) have not done school math in a long, long time. How are you going to persuade them to get the best plan? Saying &quot;12.3&quot; all by itself won&#039;t work.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; So when they write down &#8220;x = 12.3â€³ and circle it, I can say, &#8220;Come on, man. They&#8217;re never going to understand that. You have to spell it out for them.</p>
<p>This is vital, and something we math teachers don&#8217;t often think about. Mathematical modeling is an exercise in rhetoric; the goal is to persuade someone (often yourself!) of some conclusion. The arguments we use are different from, say, an argument in history, but they&#8217;re arguments nonetheless. It&#8217;s vital to give students a real audience that they&#8217;re communicating to, and especially vital that the audience not always be &#8220;their math teacher&#8221;.</p>
<p>For this made-over problem, I&#8217;d make the audience their parents (or some other grown-ups), who a) control the money decisions and b) have not done school math in a long, long time. How are you going to persuade them to get the best plan? Saying &#8220;12.3&#8221; all by itself won&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Isaac D		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-968076</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Isaac D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 20:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-968076</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I strongly agree with Timfc&#039;s comment above.
I&#039;ve been struggling with how to explain to students that they will never encounter a &quot;real-world&quot; situation that is exactly equivalent to an equation, and that the equations are just approximations that can be used to roughly model a limited number of cases without making linear algebra sound like a pointless exercise in abstraction.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I strongly agree with Timfc&#8217;s comment above.<br />
I&#8217;ve been struggling with how to explain to students that they will never encounter a &#8220;real-world&#8221; situation that is exactly equivalent to an equation, and that the equations are just approximations that can be used to roughly model a limited number of cases without making linear algebra sound like a pointless exercise in abstraction.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beth		</title>
		<link>/2013/makeover-internet-plans/#comment-968044</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 20:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17391#comment-968044</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I appreciate having students select a random number to begin with to start the work more concretely.

Then adding the number line provides a great visual.  I had not thought of applying that to a problem like this.  Will definitely add that strategy to my teaching plan!  I can envision 2 - 3 colors of sticky notes ... choose the color based on the &quot;plan&quot; you select.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate having students select a random number to begin with to start the work more concretely.</p>
<p>Then adding the number line provides a great visual.  I had not thought of applying that to a problem like this.  Will definitely add that strategy to my teaching plan!  I can envision 2 &#8211; 3 colors of sticky notes &#8230; choose the color based on the &#8220;plan&#8221; you select.</p>
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