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	Comments on: [QOTD] Hans Freudenthal&#8217;s &#8220;Major Problems Of Math Education&#8221;	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 22:01:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1010082</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 22:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1010082</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Calculators-in-education posts tend to get really flamey real fast and I appreciate you guys keeping it cool. Everything seems to have been said so I&#039;m going to close this up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calculators-in-education posts tend to get really flamey real fast and I appreciate you guys keeping it cool. Everything seems to have been said so I&#8217;m going to close this up.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Corey Greider		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1010074</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Corey Greider]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 21:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1010074</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[While I think these ideals are great, and are completely truthful, I wonder if maybe the calculator has taken classrooms too far? Often times in the classroom, especially younger grades, the main focus of the teacher is to teach the fundamentals (how to arrive at the answer), and some of them are just taking the easy way out and going directly to the calculator, because it is readily available to the students and the teacher. Math is often scary to elementary teachers, and they do not fully understand some of the concepts, so they will &quot;cheat&quot; their way through by allowing the use of a calculator, rather than teaching the method that it takes to arrive at the given answer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think these ideals are great, and are completely truthful, I wonder if maybe the calculator has taken classrooms too far? Often times in the classroom, especially younger grades, the main focus of the teacher is to teach the fundamentals (how to arrive at the answer), and some of them are just taking the easy way out and going directly to the calculator, because it is readily available to the students and the teacher. Math is often scary to elementary teachers, and they do not fully understand some of the concepts, so they will &#8220;cheat&#8221; their way through by allowing the use of a calculator, rather than teaching the method that it takes to arrive at the given answer.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Math Teacher		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1010073</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Math Teacher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 21:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1010073</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Interesting points Mr. Goldenberg...especially viewing paper and pencil as technology (which renders just about everything outside our person as technology I suppose). Calculators certainly have a place, and you and Dan (above your latest reply) have good ideas.

To be sure: I&#039;m not looking to return to a mythical golden age of rough and tumble paper and pencil work. I just believe that there is value in learning how to, say, multiply by using traditional algorithms (or others like the lattice approach). I guess I agree with your third paragraph. While I still like introducing graphing the old-fashioned (if you will)  way, analyzing and graphing data (mean, median, line of best fit) is best done on a calculator or spreadsheet.

In any event, I suppose that on the continuum from purist to new age/hippie (and I&#039;m kidding with the latter label), I probably fall closer to purist than you.

G&#039;day!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting points Mr. Goldenberg&#8230;especially viewing paper and pencil as technology (which renders just about everything outside our person as technology I suppose). Calculators certainly have a place, and you and Dan (above your latest reply) have good ideas.</p>
<p>To be sure: I&#8217;m not looking to return to a mythical golden age of rough and tumble paper and pencil work. I just believe that there is value in learning how to, say, multiply by using traditional algorithms (or others like the lattice approach). I guess I agree with your third paragraph. While I still like introducing graphing the old-fashioned (if you will)  way, analyzing and graphing data (mean, median, line of best fit) is best done on a calculator or spreadsheet.</p>
<p>In any event, I suppose that on the continuum from purist to new age/hippie (and I&#8217;m kidding with the latter label), I probably fall closer to purist than you.</p>
<p>G&#8217;day!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Paul Goldenberg		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1010049</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Paul Goldenberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 20:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1010049</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[math teacher@: I have to question the notion that calculator use or that of any specific technology (and again, you need to recognize that pencil and paper and similar tools are technology) inevitably become a &quot;crutch.&quot; If &quot;crutches&quot; are so horrible, of course, we should all go back to mental math exclusively. That even early humans realized that this was an ineffective way to calculate suggests, however, that we are naturally inclined to try to find more efficient ways to do donkey arithmetic and the like. 

There&#039;s also the chicken &#038; egg conundrum here: without research evidence, the assumption that the proper order is to start with no calculating aids (and again, there are far more powerful things available to many students these days, free of charge, than hand-held calculators) and then allow the tools, I&#039;m afraid you don&#039;t have evidence other than appeal to tradition to back your position.

I suggest that it&#039;s reasonable to allow calculators, etc., first for some things, paper-and-pencil methods first for some, hands-on representations for still others, and so forth. I can see situations (and graphing is one of them) in which it makes sense to have the paper/pencil tools and more powerful ones introduced together. Purists, of course, can never allow such radical departures from tradition, I know (having been actively engaged in the Math Wars since &#039;92 and in fights about calculators and computers since the late 1980s). 

Your assumption that seeing an electronically produced graph first is debilitating to learning begs a rather obvious question: why is it that many of those &quot;thinking&quot; students using paper/pencil long before there were hand-held or desk-top graphing calculators and computers, not only didn&#039;t get it, but continued long after their early exposure to the subject to not get it? Were they just &quot;dumb,&quot; &quot;lazy,&quot; etc.? Or could it be that there are many students who could benefit from more approaches than were dreamed of in the philosophy of earlier generations of math teachers?

Why was Leibniz, one of the greatest geniuses of all time, intent on creating a mechanical device for proving formulas, crunching numbers, and in other ways investigating scientific and mathematical truths? Why did Babbage think it a worthwhile project to do something similar? 

I&#039;m no opponent of having students learn mathematics as a thinking activity. I&#039;m simply not convinced that making rapid, accurate hand-calculation a shibboleth for pursuing mathematical ideas is a wise practice. Intelligent use of tools seems to be part of the nature of being human. &quot;No pain, no gain&quot; may be all well and good for building muscles, but does the analogy hold up quite as well as some think for learning mathematics? And who exactly wants to be Arnold Schwarzenegger, anyhow?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>math teacher@: I have to question the notion that calculator use or that of any specific technology (and again, you need to recognize that pencil and paper and similar tools are technology) inevitably become a &#8220;crutch.&#8221; If &#8220;crutches&#8221; are so horrible, of course, we should all go back to mental math exclusively. That even early humans realized that this was an ineffective way to calculate suggests, however, that we are naturally inclined to try to find more efficient ways to do donkey arithmetic and the like. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s also the chicken &amp; egg conundrum here: without research evidence, the assumption that the proper order is to start with no calculating aids (and again, there are far more powerful things available to many students these days, free of charge, than hand-held calculators) and then allow the tools, I&#8217;m afraid you don&#8217;t have evidence other than appeal to tradition to back your position.</p>
<p>I suggest that it&#8217;s reasonable to allow calculators, etc., first for some things, paper-and-pencil methods first for some, hands-on representations for still others, and so forth. I can see situations (and graphing is one of them) in which it makes sense to have the paper/pencil tools and more powerful ones introduced together. Purists, of course, can never allow such radical departures from tradition, I know (having been actively engaged in the Math Wars since &#8217;92 and in fights about calculators and computers since the late 1980s). </p>
<p>Your assumption that seeing an electronically produced graph first is debilitating to learning begs a rather obvious question: why is it that many of those &#8220;thinking&#8221; students using paper/pencil long before there were hand-held or desk-top graphing calculators and computers, not only didn&#8217;t get it, but continued long after their early exposure to the subject to not get it? Were they just &#8220;dumb,&#8221; &#8220;lazy,&#8221; etc.? Or could it be that there are many students who could benefit from more approaches than were dreamed of in the philosophy of earlier generations of math teachers?</p>
<p>Why was Leibniz, one of the greatest geniuses of all time, intent on creating a mechanical device for proving formulas, crunching numbers, and in other ways investigating scientific and mathematical truths? Why did Babbage think it a worthwhile project to do something similar? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no opponent of having students learn mathematics as a thinking activity. I&#8217;m simply not convinced that making rapid, accurate hand-calculation a shibboleth for pursuing mathematical ideas is a wise practice. Intelligent use of tools seems to be part of the nature of being human. &#8220;No pain, no gain&#8221; may be all well and good for building muscles, but does the analogy hold up quite as well as some think for learning mathematics? And who exactly wants to be Arnold Schwarzenegger, anyhow?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1010039</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 19:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1010039</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree the student should be able to graph without a calculator, but also should be taught the most effective way to graph with the calculator. 

Instead of using the picture of the graph, it would be much more informational to teach the student to use the table of values that the calculator provides for such a function. This would eliminate the students error and show them the points that needed graphed. And allow the student to see the pattern of the y values as the x values increase. 

Using the technology more effectively is the key. Also, to take a page from Dan Meyer, have them graph one by finding many ordered pairs with the equation first (annoying and tedious). Thus showing them the need for the tool (the calculator) and how it make it easier. Creating a need for the technology will make them want to learn how to use it and remember it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree the student should be able to graph without a calculator, but also should be taught the most effective way to graph with the calculator. </p>
<p>Instead of using the picture of the graph, it would be much more informational to teach the student to use the table of values that the calculator provides for such a function. This would eliminate the students error and show them the points that needed graphed. And allow the student to see the pattern of the y values as the x values increase. </p>
<p>Using the technology more effectively is the key. Also, to take a page from Dan Meyer, have them graph one by finding many ordered pairs with the equation first (annoying and tedious). Thus showing them the need for the tool (the calculator) and how it make it easier. Creating a need for the technology will make them want to learn how to use it and remember it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Math Teacher		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1010010</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Math Teacher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 17:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1010010</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow...a fair bit of blowback to my calculator posts. I happen to believe that, absent a true learning disability, calculators hinder one&#039;s ability to learn and internalize mathematical concepts. It becomes a crutch, as it did for this student. (And, yes, I have forgiven her sin.)

The glasses analogy is not quite apt, as that is a true disability that requires correction. Why introduce a calculator before a student has had a chance to try, say, graphing an equation on a piece of graph paper?

Of course students will make mistakes with or without a calculator. But at least without the calculator they are using their brains and not a pre-programmed machine that will do much of the work for them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230;a fair bit of blowback to my calculator posts. I happen to believe that, absent a true learning disability, calculators hinder one&#8217;s ability to learn and internalize mathematical concepts. It becomes a crutch, as it did for this student. (And, yes, I have forgiven her sin.)</p>
<p>The glasses analogy is not quite apt, as that is a true disability that requires correction. Why introduce a calculator before a student has had a chance to try, say, graphing an equation on a piece of graph paper?</p>
<p>Of course students will make mistakes with or without a calculator. But at least without the calculator they are using their brains and not a pre-programmed machine that will do much of the work for them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Evan Weinberg		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1009519</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evan Weinberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Sep 2013 13:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1009519</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Ken Ellis:
&quot;Sort of like letting me use my glasses to see once I can prove I can read the stuff posted on the far wall.&quot;

That analogy is fantastically better than anything I&#039;ve used previously. Thank you for sharing it!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ken Ellis:<br />
&#8220;Sort of like letting me use my glasses to see once I can prove I can read the stuff posted on the far wall.&#8221;</p>
<p>That analogy is fantastically better than anything I&#8217;ve used previously. Thank you for sharing it!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ken Ellis		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1009381</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ken Ellis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Sep 2013 05:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1009381</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Most teachers I come across who allow students to use the calculator have little idea of how to use the calc as a learning tool, hence they do not teach how to learn for understanding using a calc. Even without a calc, students have and will continue to create bloopers in all sorts of Math areas. Stop blaming the calc and start thinking about ways to assist you do your job. 

Maybe it also has a place in assisting to make some areas of Math a more level playing field by allowing them to think mathematically or learn different algorithms to solve problems than the ways taught a hundred years ago. 

The poorest approach I&#039;ve seen is only allowing students to use calcs after they can prove they don&#039;t need it. Sort of like letting me use my glasses to see once I can prove I can read the stuff posted on the far wall.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most teachers I come across who allow students to use the calculator have little idea of how to use the calc as a learning tool, hence they do not teach how to learn for understanding using a calc. Even without a calc, students have and will continue to create bloopers in all sorts of Math areas. Stop blaming the calc and start thinking about ways to assist you do your job. </p>
<p>Maybe it also has a place in assisting to make some areas of Math a more level playing field by allowing them to think mathematically or learn different algorithms to solve problems than the ways taught a hundred years ago. </p>
<p>The poorest approach I&#8217;ve seen is only allowing students to use calcs after they can prove they don&#8217;t need it. Sort of like letting me use my glasses to see once I can prove I can read the stuff posted on the far wall.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joel Patterson		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1008832</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel Patterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Sep 2013 00:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1008832</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As for the student who mistakenly trusted the window on--that&#039;s just a teachable moment. Forgive her trespass, teach her the reason it&#039;s wrong, and tell her go and sin no more.

I have a strong suspicion that even in the decades before graphing calculators were widely available (the 80s, for instance), there were students who made mistakes graphing y=-2x-1.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the student who mistakenly trusted the window on&#8211;that&#8217;s just a teachable moment. Forgive her trespass, teach her the reason it&#8217;s wrong, and tell her go and sin no more.</p>
<p>I have a strong suspicion that even in the decades before graphing calculators were widely available (the 80s, for instance), there were students who made mistakes graphing y=-2x-1.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Math Teacher		</title>
		<link>/2013/qotd-hans-freudenthals-major-problems-of-math-education/#comment-1008157</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Math Teacher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Sep 2013 17:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=17868#comment-1008157</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[True enough, in that the calculator is an inanimate object and, yes, she could have used it more effectively. In the absence of a calculator, though, she would have to at least learn the concept first...and then, perhaps, use the calculator to speed up the process.

(Kind of like learning your multiplication tables first and then using the calculator to take care of the rote material when you advance to higher level math classes.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True enough, in that the calculator is an inanimate object and, yes, she could have used it more effectively. In the absence of a calculator, though, she would have to at least learn the concept first&#8230;and then, perhaps, use the calculator to speed up the process.</p>
<p>(Kind of like learning your multiplication tables first and then using the calculator to take care of the rote material when you advance to higher level math classes.)</p>
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