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	Comments on: [Makeover] These Tragic &#8220;Write An Expression&#8221; Problems	</title>
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		By: &#8220;Number sentence&#8221;, what is this? &#124; Saving school math		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2157665</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[&#8220;Number sentence&#8221;, what is this? &#124; Saving school math]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2157665</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] in complete agreement withÂ  Dan MeyerÂ on the term &#8220;Write an expression&#8221; I take exception to the vagueÂ instruction [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] in complete agreement withÂ  Dan MeyerÂ on the term &#8220;Write an expression&#8221; I take exception to the vagueÂ instruction [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gail C		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2149192</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gail C]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2014 16:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2149192</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a slightly different perspective on variables coming from someone who teaches undergrads how to program for the first time.  I use Processing, which produces all visual output.  We start by drawing static pictures and do more interactive programs as time goes on.

I usually offer the following reasons for using variables:

(1) To avoid repetition. If we write the same number many times throughout our code, but later change our mind, we have to go and update every instance.  Annoying and error-prone.

(2) To improve readability. When you give your variable a meaningful and descriptive name, you can more easily understand your calculations, etc.  This was mentioned above along with the suggestion to use a better name than &quot;x&quot;.

(3) To deal with the fact you have no idea what the value will be. At first, this doesn&#039;t come up, as we are only drawing static images, but once we introduce user input, we need a way to store that input somewhere so we can do something with it.

Maybe these points offer some clues to the question at hand.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a slightly different perspective on variables coming from someone who teaches undergrads how to program for the first time.  I use Processing, which produces all visual output.  We start by drawing static pictures and do more interactive programs as time goes on.</p>
<p>I usually offer the following reasons for using variables:</p>
<p>(1) To avoid repetition. If we write the same number many times throughout our code, but later change our mind, we have to go and update every instance.  Annoying and error-prone.</p>
<p>(2) To improve readability. When you give your variable a meaningful and descriptive name, you can more easily understand your calculations, etc.  This was mentioned above along with the suggestion to use a better name than &#8220;x&#8221;.</p>
<p>(3) To deal with the fact you have no idea what the value will be. At first, this doesn&#8217;t come up, as we are only drawing static images, but once we introduce user input, we need a way to store that input somewhere so we can do something with it.</p>
<p>Maybe these points offer some clues to the question at hand.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2143244</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2014 19:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2143244</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I wonder if we get kids thinking about variables/placeholders soon enough. Seems to me that a prime point to do it would be operator precedence - it would work well visually and it&#039;s conceptually similar. You need the student to view that line of numbers and operators as discrete items that match up in more than a left to right manner.

So why not write 4 + 9 * 3 / 2 on your board and rather than subbing in 21 you write A, with a note off to the side, rather than circling it or erasing it and replacing it with 21. It can be a stealth exposure - oh, let&#039;s just make this easier to think about by putting this A in here rather than the parenthesis. Then we can do the same for the next one, and write it over on the next line saying that B is equal to A / 2. May as well say C = 4 + B then.

Now you&#039;ve created representations and created a nice little shorthanded list to the right of one-operation things to do to get your answer. Building it worked on teaching precedence and you make it easier than visualizing the line and doing mental or on-board &quot;stacks,&quot; which is how my distant memory of it being taught was done.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if we get kids thinking about variables/placeholders soon enough. Seems to me that a prime point to do it would be operator precedence &#8211; it would work well visually and it&#8217;s conceptually similar. You need the student to view that line of numbers and operators as discrete items that match up in more than a left to right manner.</p>
<p>So why not write 4 + 9 * 3 / 2 on your board and rather than subbing in 21 you write A, with a note off to the side, rather than circling it or erasing it and replacing it with 21. It can be a stealth exposure &#8211; oh, let&#8217;s just make this easier to think about by putting this A in here rather than the parenthesis. Then we can do the same for the next one, and write it over on the next line saying that B is equal to A / 2. May as well say C = 4 + B then.</p>
<p>Now you&#8217;ve created representations and created a nice little shorthanded list to the right of one-operation things to do to get your answer. Building it worked on teaching precedence and you make it easier than visualizing the line and doing mental or on-board &#8220;stacks,&#8221; which is how my distant memory of it being taught was done.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [Makeover] Central Park &#38; These Tragic &#8220;Write An Expression&#8221; Problems		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2137951</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [Makeover] Central Park &#38; These Tragic &#8220;Write An Expression&#8221; Problems]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2014 19:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2137951</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Previously: [Makeover] These Tragic &#8220;Write An Expression&#8221; Problems [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Previously: [Makeover] These Tragic &#8220;Write An Expression&#8221; Problems [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2133268</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2014 15:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2133268</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Super helpful strategies from both &lt;strong&gt;Kate&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;Dan&lt;/strong&gt;. Thanks, team. Added to the main post.

&lt;strong&gt;Dan&lt;/strong&gt;, you should check out Evan&#039;s comments above. Evan&#039;s a spreadsheet fan also for similar purposes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Super helpful strategies from both <strong>Kate</strong> and <strong>Dan</strong>. Thanks, team. Added to the main post.</p>
<p><strong>Dan</strong>, you should check out Evan&#8217;s comments above. Evan&#8217;s a spreadsheet fan also for similar purposes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan L		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2132044</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2014 09:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2132044</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Two thoughts from a computer science teacher&#039;s point of view:
1) When introducing programming to 15 yrs olds for the first time, we use Python interactive prompt as a calculator first. And the first point is to show the advantages. Variables and funstions (one-liner formulas) simply save work. That is it, that is one of the goals of the whole programming topic anyway. When they do quadratic equations in maths at that time, we are headed that way. And students realize pretty fast: aha, I have to understand how to solve them, but once I do and I describe it properly, I never have to do it by hand anymore. Their understanding of q.e. deepened, they interest in programming increased, and I could naturally introduce a load of important CS concepts on the way. In younger age we do simpler formulas, also like BMI calculation (not only the &quot;area of the circle&quot; kind of stuff, which they, um, do not prefer), but the point is the same: the kids need to see at least some hypothetical benefit for themselves. Having to introduce variables in maths, I would in principle search for a similar approach. (Note: for even younger kids, fun and creativity achieved with Scratch, turtle etc. overweigh the &quot;practical benefits&quot;; but when practicality leads to more fun - win-win!).

2) A good and often forgotten tool between calculation on paper and programming is a spreadsheet. It can store lots of numbers in a structured way and perform basic calculations, what is well understood by kids. And when we want to do anything more complex without getting beards grown, we absolutely need formulas and &quot;variables&quot;. Their advantages are imminent. And the whole time, everything is in plain sight, the level of abstraction is way lower than with programming, making it very accessible for kids. I am of course interested in it &quot;from the other side&quot; - after some decent work in spreadsheets, many more advanced concepts are a step away (for-loop, data type, input-output, function, incremental work on more complicated calculations, debugging etc. etc.). But I believe that thoughtful use of spreadsheets can improve understanding in appropriate topics in maths.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two thoughts from a computer science teacher&#8217;s point of view:<br />
1) When introducing programming to 15 yrs olds for the first time, we use Python interactive prompt as a calculator first. And the first point is to show the advantages. Variables and funstions (one-liner formulas) simply save work. That is it, that is one of the goals of the whole programming topic anyway. When they do quadratic equations in maths at that time, we are headed that way. And students realize pretty fast: aha, I have to understand how to solve them, but once I do and I describe it properly, I never have to do it by hand anymore. Their understanding of q.e. deepened, they interest in programming increased, and I could naturally introduce a load of important CS concepts on the way. In younger age we do simpler formulas, also like BMI calculation (not only the &#8220;area of the circle&#8221; kind of stuff, which they, um, do not prefer), but the point is the same: the kids need to see at least some hypothetical benefit for themselves. Having to introduce variables in maths, I would in principle search for a similar approach. (Note: for even younger kids, fun and creativity achieved with Scratch, turtle etc. overweigh the &#8220;practical benefits&#8221;; but when practicality leads to more fun &#8211; win-win!).</p>
<p>2) A good and often forgotten tool between calculation on paper and programming is a spreadsheet. It can store lots of numbers in a structured way and perform basic calculations, what is well understood by kids. And when we want to do anything more complex without getting beards grown, we absolutely need formulas and &#8220;variables&#8221;. Their advantages are imminent. And the whole time, everything is in plain sight, the level of abstraction is way lower than with programming, making it very accessible for kids. I am of course interested in it &#8220;from the other side&#8221; &#8211; after some decent work in spreadsheets, many more advanced concepts are a step away (for-loop, data type, input-output, function, incremental work on more complicated calculations, debugging etc. etc.). But I believe that thoughtful use of spreadsheets can improve understanding in appropriate topics in maths.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Xavier		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2131947</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Xavier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2014 08:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2131947</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Irma Fiametta: perfect. Sublime!. You pass from a boring task to interesting

@all:

why not represent the data? &quot;Can we plot the data of number of remembered dreams....&quot;

what about hidden equations: how many dream we dreamt if we remember just 370?

Here is what variables matter. The rest is pure mechanic illusion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Irma Fiametta: perfect. Sublime!. You pass from a boring task to interesting</p>
<p>@all:</p>
<p>why not represent the data? &#8220;Can we plot the data of number of remembered dreams&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>what about hidden equations: how many dream we dreamt if we remember just 370?</p>
<p>Here is what variables matter. The rest is pure mechanic illusion.</p>
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		<title>
		By: katenerdypoo		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2131708</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[katenerdypoo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2014 07:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2131708</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[i think the ability to generalize and write a rule with variables is really important, but you can come to that through lots of nice activities and investigations as well.

for example, i did dan&#039;s &quot;taco cart&quot; with my students with a few notable changes. instead of telling the students how fast dan and ben walked, i had each group decide on the speed of the two men themselves and list that along with other assumptions they made in the problem. 

when we did the whole class summary, i told them that i had written down a formula on my paper that would allow me to check if their answers were correct and that i needed that since everyone used their own speed. i should&#039;ve asked them all to take a minute to try to come up with the formula i used, but instead i elicited it at that moment and one student gave me the correct formula. the need for two variables (speed on sand and speed on pavement) was obvious.

in part two of taco cart, when the students were trying to figure out where the taco cart should be so that the two men reached it at the same time, one group did seemingly endless guess and checks. i suggested to them that this wasn&#039;t a good method and asked if maybe it wasn&#039;t better to write an equation with a variable. again, they could see the need. once they started with a variable, the rest of the problem started to fall into place. 


here&#039;s the thing: these &quot;write an expression&quot; problem want to train students to learn to generalize and write a rule. they want them to be able to see a situation that would best be tackled with a formula of some sort, write said formula with various variables, and use their formula to solve complex problems. but the issue is that these problems don&#039;t actually train students in that way because they&#039;re so artificial and one-dimensional. what they do is teach students to &quot;translate&quot; from english to math (an important step along the way, i do believe), but not to recognize a situation in which a formula would be helpful or necessary or how powerful it can be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think the ability to generalize and write a rule with variables is really important, but you can come to that through lots of nice activities and investigations as well.</p>
<p>for example, i did dan&#8217;s &#8220;taco cart&#8221; with my students with a few notable changes. instead of telling the students how fast dan and ben walked, i had each group decide on the speed of the two men themselves and list that along with other assumptions they made in the problem. </p>
<p>when we did the whole class summary, i told them that i had written down a formula on my paper that would allow me to check if their answers were correct and that i needed that since everyone used their own speed. i should&#8217;ve asked them all to take a minute to try to come up with the formula i used, but instead i elicited it at that moment and one student gave me the correct formula. the need for two variables (speed on sand and speed on pavement) was obvious.</p>
<p>in part two of taco cart, when the students were trying to figure out where the taco cart should be so that the two men reached it at the same time, one group did seemingly endless guess and checks. i suggested to them that this wasn&#8217;t a good method and asked if maybe it wasn&#8217;t better to write an equation with a variable. again, they could see the need. once they started with a variable, the rest of the problem started to fall into place. </p>
<p>here&#8217;s the thing: these &#8220;write an expression&#8221; problem want to train students to learn to generalize and write a rule. they want them to be able to see a situation that would best be tackled with a formula of some sort, write said formula with various variables, and use their formula to solve complex problems. but the issue is that these problems don&#8217;t actually train students in that way because they&#8217;re so artificial and one-dimensional. what they do is teach students to &#8220;translate&#8221; from english to math (an important step along the way, i do believe), but not to recognize a situation in which a formula would be helpful or necessary or how powerful it can be.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeanette S		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2131256</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeanette S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2014 05:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2131256</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I may be off the programming vs algebraic variables track, but have been working on building understanding of variables using &#039;Think of a number&#039; problems with teachers of Grades 6 and 7. 

For example: Think of a number, multiply by 2, add 10,  divide by 2, subtract the number you thought of. What is your answer?
What if you start with a different number? I wonder why this happens?
Can you change the instructions to end with a different number?

Using a variable (and I prefer not to use x)
n --&#062; 2n --&#062; 2n + 10 --&#062; n + 5 --&#062; 5.

}I would love to have more such puzzles if any one can supply them.]

The other introduction to variables I use is through patterns in a calendar month: What patterns can you find and why do they work?

It seems to me that if variables are necessary for understanding a situation, then students are more likely to appreciate them as valuable in solving problems. 

The issue with Dan&#039;s textbook problem is that it is not a problem, but a series of instructions! I wonder how Dan will make it into a problem that is rich enough to need  solving with a variable? I look forward to Monday&#039;s post.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be off the programming vs algebraic variables track, but have been working on building understanding of variables using &#8216;Think of a number&#8217; problems with teachers of Grades 6 and 7. </p>
<p>For example: Think of a number, multiply by 2, add 10,  divide by 2, subtract the number you thought of. What is your answer?<br />
What if you start with a different number? I wonder why this happens?<br />
Can you change the instructions to end with a different number?</p>
<p>Using a variable (and I prefer not to use x)<br />
n &#8211;&gt; 2n &#8211;&gt; 2n + 10 &#8211;&gt; n + 5 &#8211;&gt; 5.</p>
<p>}I would love to have more such puzzles if any one can supply them.]</p>
<p>The other introduction to variables I use is through patterns in a calendar month: What patterns can you find and why do they work?</p>
<p>It seems to me that if variables are necessary for understanding a situation, then students are more likely to appreciate them as valuable in solving problems. </p>
<p>The issue with Dan&#8217;s textbook problem is that it is not a problem, but a series of instructions! I wonder how Dan will make it into a problem that is rich enough to need  solving with a variable? I look forward to Monday&#8217;s post.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2014/makeover-these-tragic-write-an-expression-problems/#comment-2130648</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2014 02:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=20895#comment-2130648</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@&lt;strong&gt;Josh G.&lt;/strong&gt;, thanks for helping focus us on the differences in uses. To clarify myself, though, I&#039;m not saying I think that the &lt;em&gt;use&lt;/em&gt; of variables should be the same in both disciplines. I&#039;m saying I&#039;d like students to &lt;em&gt;regard&lt;/em&gt; variables as powerful, sensible structures like programmers do.

@&lt;strong&gt;Andrew&lt;/strong&gt;, I&#039;m not sure how your proposed makeover does anything different with the &lt;em&gt;variable&lt;/em&gt;, though it certainly does involve students in more interesting aspects of modeling.

@&lt;strong&gt;Joshua Zucker&lt;/strong&gt;, &quot;reuse&quot; seems like a potent theme to explore here. But if we do a ton of the same problem, writing down a variable expression to summarize that work just seems like The Next Problem here. For programmers, that expression carries with it some &lt;em&gt;power&lt;/em&gt; that I&#039;d like students to experience also.

@&lt;strong&gt;Mark James&lt;/strong&gt;, exactly. You&#039;ve restated the problem nicely. We&#039;re looking for a scenario where students experience the &lt;em&gt;ease&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;power&lt;/em&gt; of variables.

@&lt;strong&gt;Howard&lt;/strong&gt;, go for it. Cheers.

@&lt;strong&gt;Dylan Kane&lt;/strong&gt;, &quot;extra work.&quot; Right, that&#039;s exactly what I was trying to convey to &lt;strong&gt;Joshua&lt;/strong&gt; above. Thanks.

@&lt;strong&gt;Jennifer&lt;/strong&gt;, nice introduction to the concept of a variable. Added to the post above.

FWIW, I&#039;ll throw my chips towards &lt;a href=&quot;http://evanweinberg.com/2014/07/25/the-nature-of-variables-for-students-vs-programmers/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Evan&#039;s&lt;/strong&gt; post on the matter&lt;/a&gt;. (Be sure to click through to his earlier one also.)

Here&#039;s &lt;strong&gt;Evan&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Programmers use variables because they want to build a program that produces a correct output for every possible input that might be used to solve a given problem or design.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And the value of that variable expression grows the more times the programmer runs it. In the textbook original here, the student runs the expression &lt;em&gt;once&lt;/em&gt;. That seems like a major shortcoming of this kind of problem to me.

@&lt;strong&gt;Pam&lt;/strong&gt;, the biggest trouble was that the intersection of school Algebra and programming isn&#039;t as large as we thought.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<strong>Josh G.</strong>, thanks for helping focus us on the differences in uses. To clarify myself, though, I&#8217;m not saying I think that the <em>use</em> of variables should be the same in both disciplines. I&#8217;m saying I&#8217;d like students to <em>regard</em> variables as powerful, sensible structures like programmers do.</p>
<p>@<strong>Andrew</strong>, I&#8217;m not sure how your proposed makeover does anything different with the <em>variable</em>, though it certainly does involve students in more interesting aspects of modeling.</p>
<p>@<strong>Joshua Zucker</strong>, &#8220;reuse&#8221; seems like a potent theme to explore here. But if we do a ton of the same problem, writing down a variable expression to summarize that work just seems like The Next Problem here. For programmers, that expression carries with it some <em>power</em> that I&#8217;d like students to experience also.</p>
<p>@<strong>Mark James</strong>, exactly. You&#8217;ve restated the problem nicely. We&#8217;re looking for a scenario where students experience the <em>ease</em> and <em>power</em> of variables.</p>
<p>@<strong>Howard</strong>, go for it. Cheers.</p>
<p>@<strong>Dylan Kane</strong>, &#8220;extra work.&#8221; Right, that&#8217;s exactly what I was trying to convey to <strong>Joshua</strong> above. Thanks.</p>
<p>@<strong>Jennifer</strong>, nice introduction to the concept of a variable. Added to the post above.</p>
<p>FWIW, I&#8217;ll throw my chips towards <a href="http://evanweinberg.com/2014/07/25/the-nature-of-variables-for-students-vs-programmers/" rel="nofollow"><strong>Evan&#8217;s</strong> post on the matter</a>. (Be sure to click through to his earlier one also.)</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s <strong>Evan</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Programmers use variables because they want to build a program that produces a correct output for every possible input that might be used to solve a given problem or design.</p></blockquote>
<p>And the value of that variable expression grows the more times the programmer runs it. In the textbook original here, the student runs the expression <em>once</em>. That seems like a major shortcoming of this kind of problem to me.</p>
<p>@<strong>Pam</strong>, the biggest trouble was that the intersection of school Algebra and programming isn&#8217;t as large as we thought.</p>
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