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	Comments on: An Advocate Of Explicit Instruction Experiences The Limits Of Explicit Instruction	</title>
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	<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/</link>
	<description>less helpful</description>
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		<title>
		By: Mr_Young		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411997</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr_Young]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2015 02:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411997</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When Mr. Ashman provided a defense of his outlook in the link in post number 6, he uses an excerpt from the book that Mr. Meyer is recommending.  The excerpt describes the efforts by one classroom teacher to produce an entirely student driven method of solving problems.  I had to re-read his post to see that this description is given in the book &quot;How People Learn&quot; as an exemplar of ideal practices.    He provides a link to an entry to the &quot;Encyclopedia of the Sciences of Learning&quot; that seems to refute exemplar from &quot;How People Learn.&quot;  The encyclopedia entry says that &quot;Extensive research has shown that for novices in particular, this pairing methodology of study-solve, leads to superior performance ...&quot;  It does not site the source of this conclusion, but I found it to be compelling.  
If you carefully read Mr. Ashman&#039;s defense of his interpretation of the book, it is tough to argue that he is totally wrong.  It did detract from my previous opinion that &quot;How People Learn&quot; might be a valuable resource.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Mr. Ashman provided a defense of his outlook in the link in post number 6, he uses an excerpt from the book that Mr. Meyer is recommending.  The excerpt describes the efforts by one classroom teacher to produce an entirely student driven method of solving problems.  I had to re-read his post to see that this description is given in the book &#8220;How People Learn&#8221; as an exemplar of ideal practices.    He provides a link to an entry to the &#8220;Encyclopedia of the Sciences of Learning&#8221; that seems to refute exemplar from &#8220;How People Learn.&#8221;  The encyclopedia entry says that &#8220;Extensive research has shown that for novices in particular, this pairing methodology of study-solve, leads to superior performance &#8230;&#8221;  It does not site the source of this conclusion, but I found it to be compelling.<br />
If you carefully read Mr. Ashman&#8217;s defense of his interpretation of the book, it is tough to argue that he is totally wrong.  It did detract from my previous opinion that &#8220;How People Learn&#8221; might be a valuable resource.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411961</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411961</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;They still have to memorise that sine starts at 1, don’t they? How do they deal with Tan?&lt;/em&gt;

Not really; if they know the sin is the y coordinate of the unit circle, just visualizing or drawing the unit circle will give the information sine starts at 1. If they can&#039;t do this, I would say they don&#039;t understand trig well enough to handle identities.

So yes, they have to memorize at some level, but it is the arbitrary convention of sin = opp / hyp, cos = adj / hyp, tan = opp / adj. Everything else can be pulled straight off the unit circle.

Tangent is sine divided by cosine because it is opposite over adjacent, that is, the y value divided by the x value on the unit circle. And yes, I would expect them to be able to visualize that, because otherwise they get lost in the different varieties of Pythagorean identities.

There is an alternate way to draw the unit circle which directly has tangent as one of the sides. I only use it if students seem to be really interested in the geometric aspect.

https://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/trig-identities-and-the-unit-circle/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>They still have to memorise that sine starts at 1, don’t they? How do they deal with Tan?</em></p>
<p>Not really; if they know the sin is the y coordinate of the unit circle, just visualizing or drawing the unit circle will give the information sine starts at 1. If they can&#8217;t do this, I would say they don&#8217;t understand trig well enough to handle identities.</p>
<p>So yes, they have to memorize at some level, but it is the arbitrary convention of sin = opp / hyp, cos = adj / hyp, tan = opp / adj. Everything else can be pulled straight off the unit circle.</p>
<p>Tangent is sine divided by cosine because it is opposite over adjacent, that is, the y value divided by the x value on the unit circle. And yes, I would expect them to be able to visualize that, because otherwise they get lost in the different varieties of Pythagorean identities.</p>
<p>There is an alternate way to draw the unit circle which directly has tangent as one of the sides. I only use it if students seem to be really interested in the geometric aspect.</p>
<p><a href="https://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/trig-identities-and-the-unit-circle/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/trig-identities-and-the-unit-circle/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: educationrealist		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411955</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411955</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No, it means that the opposite leg is 84% of the hypotenuse. And while they might struggle to realize that 1.2:1 is 6:5, it&#039;s not outside the realm of possibility that they&#039;d recognize the first number is 20% greater than the second.

And it is possible to get kids to think about it. I do it all the time. Here&#039;s an early version: https://educationrealist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trigquestion.jpg

I often give a triangle with clearly distinguishable leg lengths (but no measurements) and ask them to order the six ratios from largest to smallest. This forces the kids to think about the ratios. The kids should always understand why sec &#062;= cos, why csc &#062;= sin, and why cot and tan are not as predictable.


So no, it&#039;s not just some random word salad.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it means that the opposite leg is 84% of the hypotenuse. And while they might struggle to realize that 1.2:1 is 6:5, it&#8217;s not outside the realm of possibility that they&#8217;d recognize the first number is 20% greater than the second.</p>
<p>And it is possible to get kids to think about it. I do it all the time. Here&#8217;s an early version: <a href="https://educationrealist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trigquestion.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">https://educationrealist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trigquestion.jpg</a></p>
<p>I often give a triangle with clearly distinguishable leg lengths (but no measurements) and ask them to order the six ratios from largest to smallest. This forces the kids to think about the ratios. The kids should always understand why sec &gt;= cos, why csc &gt;= sin, and why cot and tan are not as predictable.</p>
<p>So no, it&#8217;s not just some random word salad.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chester Draws		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411948</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chester Draws]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2015 05:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411948</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No, they don&#039;t know they are using a ratio.

They know that sin is used when they have a hypotenuse and need an &quot;opposite&quot;, or vice versa. The choice of division or multiplication is determined by the SOH triangle. 

https://ma610.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/trig-equations.gif

People in general have extremely poor understanding of ratios. They struggle to recognise that 1.2 : 1 is 6 : 5, for example. That sin(57) means the &quot;opposite&quot; to hypotenuse is in the ratio of 0.83867 : 1 is just some random word salad that Maths teachers like to use.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, they don&#8217;t know they are using a ratio.</p>
<p>They know that sin is used when they have a hypotenuse and need an &#8220;opposite&#8221;, or vice versa. The choice of division or multiplication is determined by the SOH triangle. </p>
<p><a href="https://ma610.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/trig-equations.gif" rel="nofollow ugc">https://ma610.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/trig-equations.gif</a></p>
<p>People in general have extremely poor understanding of ratios. They struggle to recognise that 1.2 : 1 is 6 : 5, for example. That sin(57) means the &#8220;opposite&#8221; to hypotenuse is in the ratio of 0.83867 : 1 is just some random word salad that Maths teachers like to use.</p>
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		<title>
		By: educationrealist		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411912</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2015 00:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411912</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I wonder what Greg Ashman would make of Chester.

Chester, let me rephrase. Do your kids know what a trigonometric RATIO is. You used the word function, not me. But the function, in right triangle trig, is just returning the ratio.  I was asking if your students understood that they were using a ratio of the legs or leg/hypotenuse.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what Greg Ashman would make of Chester.</p>
<p>Chester, let me rephrase. Do your kids know what a trigonometric RATIO is. You used the word function, not me. But the function, in right triangle trig, is just returning the ratio.  I was asking if your students understood that they were using a ratio of the legs or leg/hypotenuse.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chester Draws		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411909</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chester Draws]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411909</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;But do they know what a trig function is?&lt;/i&gt;

No, of course not. 

We teach trigonometry well before we teach functions. It&#039;s not a problem. You can do trig perfectly well without any understanding of functions at all. 

I deliberately avoid any mention of ratios when teaching trig. They don&#039;t understand them properly, and it only confuses them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But do they know what a trig function is?</i></p>
<p>No, of course not. </p>
<p>We teach trigonometry well before we teach functions. It&#8217;s not a problem. You can do trig perfectly well without any understanding of functions at all. </p>
<p>I deliberately avoid any mention of ratios when teaching trig. They don&#8217;t understand them properly, and it only confuses them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chester Draws		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411908</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chester Draws]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411908</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The fact sine starts at 0 and cosine starts at 1 is tied in with the unit circle meaning in a way that makes it instantly comprehensible to a student with understanding and just another thing to memorize and mix up to a student who is strictly procedural.&lt;/i&gt;

They still have to memorise that sine starts at 1, don&#039;t they? How do they deal with Tan? 

On the whole, the unit circle is the hardest way to teach &quot;understanding&quot; in my experience. For higher level students a trig graph from 0 to 2pi is more effective. 

The SOH CAH TOA method of trig triangles pretty much removes any thinking about whether to divide or multiply. It really is foolproof.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The fact sine starts at 0 and cosine starts at 1 is tied in with the unit circle meaning in a way that makes it instantly comprehensible to a student with understanding and just another thing to memorize and mix up to a student who is strictly procedural.</i></p>
<p>They still have to memorise that sine starts at 1, don&#8217;t they? How do they deal with Tan? </p>
<p>On the whole, the unit circle is the hardest way to teach &#8220;understanding&#8221; in my experience. For higher level students a trig graph from 0 to 2pi is more effective. </p>
<p>The SOH CAH TOA method of trig triangles pretty much removes any thinking about whether to divide or multiply. It really is foolproof.</p>
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		<title>
		By: educationrealist		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411691</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[educationrealist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411691</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;My 14-year-old kids use a known side and a known angle of a right angle triangle and find another side. They do so entirely by a process of selecting which trig function to use, and whether to divide or multiply.&quot;

But do they know what a trig function is?

For example, I build from special right triangles, where they derive the ratio of the sides, and know that the ratio of short leg to  hypotenuse is 1 to 2, etc. Then when I get to right triangle trig, I show them that the ratios are unique to the angle.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My 14-year-old kids use a known side and a known angle of a right angle triangle and find another side. They do so entirely by a process of selecting which trig function to use, and whether to divide or multiply.&#8221;</p>
<p>But do they know what a trig function is?</p>
<p>For example, I build from special right triangles, where they derive the ratio of the sides, and know that the ratio of short leg to  hypotenuse is 1 to 2, etc. Then when I get to right triangle trig, I show them that the ratios are unique to the angle.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411688</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2015 19:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411688</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Chester:

&lt;em&gt;That’s not a problem. How would having any more understanding of trig functions aid them in any way, given the sort of problems they have to solve?&lt;/em&gt;

I find the students will tend to mix things up terribly with the kind of understanding you are throwing out there, and multiply or divide more or less at random as memory fades.

There&#039;s also later stuff that&#039;s easier or harder to learn based on basic understanding. The fact sine starts at 0 and cosine starts at 1 is tied in with the unit circle meaning in a way that makes it instantly comprehensible to a student with understanding and just another thing to memorize and mix up to a student who is strictly procedural.

Same goes for later identities like sin^2(theta) + cos^2(theta) = 1.

As a pre-calculus teacher I see all the time students clinging to some procedure from geometry (which only has time to do a surface understanding of trig; I know because I also teach geometry) and making my life harder, not easier. I have to actually &quot;de-program&quot; their prior algorithms so they&#039;ll get it right second time around.

Also regarding &quot;what kind of problems they&#039;re going to be responsible for solving&quot;: &lt;a href=&quot;https://numberwarrior.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/trigrelation.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one on the PARCC&lt;/a&gt; has a fair chance of bowling over any student with only a surface knowledge of sine and cosine.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chester:</p>
<p><em>That’s not a problem. How would having any more understanding of trig functions aid them in any way, given the sort of problems they have to solve?</em></p>
<p>I find the students will tend to mix things up terribly with the kind of understanding you are throwing out there, and multiply or divide more or less at random as memory fades.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also later stuff that&#8217;s easier or harder to learn based on basic understanding. The fact sine starts at 0 and cosine starts at 1 is tied in with the unit circle meaning in a way that makes it instantly comprehensible to a student with understanding and just another thing to memorize and mix up to a student who is strictly procedural.</p>
<p>Same goes for later identities like sin^2(theta) + cos^2(theta) = 1.</p>
<p>As a pre-calculus teacher I see all the time students clinging to some procedure from geometry (which only has time to do a surface understanding of trig; I know because I also teach geometry) and making my life harder, not easier. I have to actually &#8220;de-program&#8221; their prior algorithms so they&#8217;ll get it right second time around.</p>
<p>Also regarding &#8220;what kind of problems they&#8217;re going to be responsible for solving&#8221;: <a href="https://numberwarrior.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/trigrelation.png" rel="nofollow">this one on the PARCC</a> has a fair chance of bowling over any student with only a surface knowledge of sine and cosine.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2015/an-advocate-of-explicit-instruction-experiences-the-limits-of-explicit-instruction/#comment-2411683</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2015 17:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=23715#comment-2411683</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I should clarify that I took exception to Brian&#039;s comment at length in &lt;a href=&quot;/2015/learning-calculus-without-direct-instruction/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a new post&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should clarify that I took exception to Brian&#8217;s comment at length in <a href="/2015/learning-calculus-without-direct-instruction/" rel="nofollow">a new post</a>.</p>
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