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	Comments on: Engagement in Math: Three Places to Start	</title>
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		<title>
		By: piccolo-theatre.ru		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2433008</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[piccolo-theatre.ru]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2433008</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Programa doÂ Tesouro Direto Descomplicado estÃ¡ focado em 
ajudar vocÃªÂ a conquistarÂ seus piores objetivos 
financeiros atravÃ©s do investimento em tÃ­tulos pÃºblicos, passo-a-passo, comeÃ§ando do 
zero. http://piccolo-theatre.ru/index.php?option=com_easybookreloaded]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Programa doÂ Tesouro Direto Descomplicado estÃ¡ focado em<br />
ajudar vocÃªÂ a conquistarÂ seus piores objetivos<br />
financeiros atravÃ©s do investimento em tÃ­tulos pÃºblicos, passo-a-passo, comeÃ§ando do<br />
zero. <a href="http://piccolo-theatre.ru/index.php?option=com_easybookreloaded" rel="nofollow ugc">http://piccolo-theatre.ru/index.php?option=com_easybookreloaded</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430441</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2016 16:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430441</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430418&quot;&gt;Raymond Johnson&lt;/a&gt;.

Great find! Thanks for passing it along.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430418">Raymond Johnson</a>.</p>
<p>Great find! Thanks for passing it along.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Raymond Johnson		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430418</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Raymond Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Dec 2016 02:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430418</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reviewing recent research articles, I thought this one sounded rather relevant and timely:

Skilling, K., Bobis, J., Martin, A.J. et al. (2016). What secondary teachers think and do about student engagement in mathematics. Mathematics Education Research Journal, 28(4), 545-566. http://doi.org/10.1007/s13394-016-0179-x]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reviewing recent research articles, I thought this one sounded rather relevant and timely:</p>
<p>Skilling, K., Bobis, J., Martin, A.J. et al. (2016). What secondary teachers think and do about student engagement in mathematics. Mathematics Education Research Journal, 28(4), 545-566. <a href="http://doi.org/10.1007/s13394-016-0179-x" rel="nofollow ugc">http://doi.org/10.1007/s13394-016-0179-x</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter Gerdes		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430327</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Gerdes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2016 03:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430327</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To answer this question I think you need to be clear about what kind of engagement you actually want.

For practical reasons (at least pre-computer) almost all pre-college mathematics (and much college math) focuses on techniques for solving certain kinds of problems.  At least in my experience the more I grew interested in what I would call &quot;real&quot; math (i.e. proving/deriving results) the less interesting/engaging the game of trying to figure out a way of finding an elementary function representation of various integrals became.  Indeed, my grades and classroom participation suffered substantially because my engagement focused on questions of why/how rather than what neat tricks helped solve a problem.

Now I don&#039;t claim to be representative but I think this does reveal a general issue.  Students aren&#039;t dumb and if what your tests, homework or classroom exercises focus on is problem solving one can&#039;t drive their engagement with discussion of why/how.  My experience teaching and watching others teach inclines me to believe that if the performance you expect out of your students is problem solving (not clever reasoning/novel ideas) engagement comes out of making that problem solving into a fun game while attempting to explain too much about the why of the rules of that game just puts them to sleep and confuses them.

On the other hand if what you want is engagement with the ideas/concepts (i.e. real math) what you need to do is test/evaluate the students on clever arguments (be it proofs/derivations in a college class, novel ways of counting up winning hands in a HS probability class, or clever, non-rote, uses of property/set membership reasoning in a grade school class).  However, I fear this later approach is impossible in a setting where there is an expectation that students leave the class knowing how to solve problems of a certain kind.  (No, &#039;fake&#039; creativity doesn&#039;t count...even questions that require creative approaches the first time are rote solutions once the student becomes familiar with them).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To answer this question I think you need to be clear about what kind of engagement you actually want.</p>
<p>For practical reasons (at least pre-computer) almost all pre-college mathematics (and much college math) focuses on techniques for solving certain kinds of problems.  At least in my experience the more I grew interested in what I would call &#8220;real&#8221; math (i.e. proving/deriving results) the less interesting/engaging the game of trying to figure out a way of finding an elementary function representation of various integrals became.  Indeed, my grades and classroom participation suffered substantially because my engagement focused on questions of why/how rather than what neat tricks helped solve a problem.</p>
<p>Now I don&#8217;t claim to be representative but I think this does reveal a general issue.  Students aren&#8217;t dumb and if what your tests, homework or classroom exercises focus on is problem solving one can&#8217;t drive their engagement with discussion of why/how.  My experience teaching and watching others teach inclines me to believe that if the performance you expect out of your students is problem solving (not clever reasoning/novel ideas) engagement comes out of making that problem solving into a fun game while attempting to explain too much about the why of the rules of that game just puts them to sleep and confuses them.</p>
<p>On the other hand if what you want is engagement with the ideas/concepts (i.e. real math) what you need to do is test/evaluate the students on clever arguments (be it proofs/derivations in a college class, novel ways of counting up winning hands in a HS probability class, or clever, non-rote, uses of property/set membership reasoning in a grade school class).  However, I fear this later approach is impossible in a setting where there is an expectation that students leave the class knowing how to solve problems of a certain kind.  (No, &#8216;fake&#8217; creativity doesn&#8217;t count&#8230;even questions that require creative approaches the first time are rote solutions once the student becomes familiar with them).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jennifer		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430210</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennifer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2016 22:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430210</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430079&quot;&gt;Rene&lt;/a&gt;.

This is my problem! I believe and preach all of these things, but I always feel the pressure to keep moving. At every level I have taught...K-8 and now college. There is only so much time in a year or a semester, especially when students are expected to perform well on that EOG or final exam. I struggle with this every day and often don&#039;t feel like I have the right resources to be able to slow down to give mastery the time it needs to develop.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430079">Rene</a>.</p>
<p>This is my problem! I believe and preach all of these things, but I always feel the pressure to keep moving. At every level I have taught&#8230;K-8 and now college. There is only so much time in a year or a semester, especially when students are expected to perform well on that EOG or final exam. I struggle with this every day and often don&#8217;t feel like I have the right resources to be able to slow down to give mastery the time it needs to develop.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430109</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2016 17:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430109</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430078&quot;&gt;Sarah Giek&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for these, Sarah. I&#039;ve added them to the post.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430078">Sarah Giek</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for these, Sarah. I&#8217;ve added them to the post.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William CArey		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430108</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William CArey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430108</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve always had good success asking kids to move from the particular to the general, with feels a lot like play. For example, ask how many (distinct, proper; don&#039;t necessarily use those words) fractions there are  whose denominator Is less than five. Then six. Then nine. Then ten. That&#039;s a task a class can work out successfully and easily. Then ask them for a rule that works for any number. Then ask them about patterns, any patterns. There are so many that even pretty disengaged kids start to see some.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always had good success asking kids to move from the particular to the general, with feels a lot like play. For example, ask how many (distinct, proper; don&#8217;t necessarily use those words) fractions there are  whose denominator Is less than five. Then six. Then nine. Then ten. That&#8217;s a task a class can work out successfully and easily. Then ask them for a rule that works for any number. Then ask them about patterns, any patterns. There are so many that even pretty disengaged kids start to see some.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jane Taylor		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430101</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2016 04:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430101</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Those K-6 ideas are great for high school, too!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those K-6 ideas are great for high school, too!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rene		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430079</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2016 03:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430079</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Andrea - 1) Count!  Every.Single.Day.  Not rote count; count collections, combine, regroup, estimate.  Our youngest learners need to count. 2)  Math Chats or Math Talk, or whatever you want to call them; but it&#039;s not &quot;free discovery&quot; it&#039;s skillfully guided discussions to let students build their own knowledge in a safe environment where it&#039;s ok to conjecture. 3) Slow down.  No matter what.  Students need time to build number sense in PK-2, solid number sense, before they get to 3rd grade.  The research is clear on this.  We move students along with just surface knowledge.  Don&#039;t cave to pressure.  It feels like you will fall behind, but that&#039;s false.  Moving ahead too quickly means they are always trying to catch up, fall for tricks, and never really understand.  (Bonus: use manipulatives in every grade.  Let kids use their fingers! No 5th grade student is going to use their fingers if they really don&#039;t need to.  If they are using them, they need that support; they aren&#039;t being lazy!)

Mark - Wow.  You know all the above responses.  I&#039;ve followed you.  So my guess is this question isn&#039;t something you are struggling with in terms of pedagogy.  You&#039;re a risk taker and will try new things; you listen to other&#039;s ideas and test them out.  I&#039;m thinking you are dealing with something other than &quot;teaching&quot; math. So...ask.  Ask what&#039;s up. And listen. Really listen. Kids have so much bumping around in their heads and we can&#039;t peek inside.  Could be math.  Could be this student is one of those who truly has a math learning disability. Most people don&#039;t even know this is a very real neurological/biological/environmental disability. You know Daniel Ansari. He&#039;s tops for the neuroscience part. The intervention part is a bit more tricky.  

But...it could be outside stress; dynamics outside of your control, to an extent.  What you can do is listen - hear. Then teach coping strategies using some age appropriate cognitive behavior techniques to combat negative self talk and cognitive distortions we create and play over and over in our heads.  (If only I took my own advice!) You might not ever see the benefit of this; you might get push back. But  I can guarantee, if you ask, and listen, no matter the response, this student will know that someone noticed and cared.  And you will know you exhausted your toolkit. If help is needed that you can&#039;t provide (for example if there is a learning disorder or personal stress), you have built the case it&#039;s time to look for other reasons - like going to your general practitioner for a persistent health issue which finally requires seeing a specialist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrea &#8211; 1) Count!  Every.Single.Day.  Not rote count; count collections, combine, regroup, estimate.  Our youngest learners need to count. 2)  Math Chats or Math Talk, or whatever you want to call them; but it&#8217;s not &#8220;free discovery&#8221; it&#8217;s skillfully guided discussions to let students build their own knowledge in a safe environment where it&#8217;s ok to conjecture. 3) Slow down.  No matter what.  Students need time to build number sense in PK-2, solid number sense, before they get to 3rd grade.  The research is clear on this.  We move students along with just surface knowledge.  Don&#8217;t cave to pressure.  It feels like you will fall behind, but that&#8217;s false.  Moving ahead too quickly means they are always trying to catch up, fall for tricks, and never really understand.  (Bonus: use manipulatives in every grade.  Let kids use their fingers! No 5th grade student is going to use their fingers if they really don&#8217;t need to.  If they are using them, they need that support; they aren&#8217;t being lazy!)</p>
<p>Mark &#8211; Wow.  You know all the above responses.  I&#8217;ve followed you.  So my guess is this question isn&#8217;t something you are struggling with in terms of pedagogy.  You&#8217;re a risk taker and will try new things; you listen to other&#8217;s ideas and test them out.  I&#8217;m thinking you are dealing with something other than &#8220;teaching&#8221; math. So&#8230;ask.  Ask what&#8217;s up. And listen. Really listen. Kids have so much bumping around in their heads and we can&#8217;t peek inside.  Could be math.  Could be this student is one of those who truly has a math learning disability. Most people don&#8217;t even know this is a very real neurological/biological/environmental disability. You know Daniel Ansari. He&#8217;s tops for the neuroscience part. The intervention part is a bit more tricky.  </p>
<p>But&#8230;it could be outside stress; dynamics outside of your control, to an extent.  What you can do is listen &#8211; hear. Then teach coping strategies using some age appropriate cognitive behavior techniques to combat negative self talk and cognitive distortions we create and play over and over in our heads.  (If only I took my own advice!) You might not ever see the benefit of this; you might get push back. But  I can guarantee, if you ask, and listen, no matter the response, this student will know that someone noticed and cared.  And you will know you exhausted your toolkit. If help is needed that you can&#8217;t provide (for example if there is a learning disorder or personal stress), you have built the case it&#8217;s time to look for other reasons &#8211; like going to your general practitioner for a persistent health issue which finally requires seeing a specialist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sarah Giek		</title>
		<link>/2016/engagement-in-math-three-places-to-start/#comment-2430078</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah Giek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2016 03:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25929#comment-2430078</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Mark - Oftentimes, my disengaged/uninterested students are the ones that believe they can’t “do” math. Show them that they can; change their mindset and open the lesson.  
Read: Mathematical Mindsets
Watch:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVneQUA5-c
Try:  http://ntimages.weebly.com/photos.html
(In addition to the great resources above!)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Mark &#8211; Oftentimes, my disengaged/uninterested students are the ones that believe they can’t “do” math. Show them that they can; change their mindset and open the lesson.<br />
Read: Mathematical Mindsets<br />
Watch:  <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVneQUA5-c" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVneQUA5-c</a><br />
Try:  <a href="http://ntimages.weebly.com/photos.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://ntimages.weebly.com/photos.html</a><br />
(In addition to the great resources above!)</p>
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