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	Comments on: What&#8217;s Wrong with This Experiment?	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2017 15:11:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Brian Winkel		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2431517</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Winkel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2017 15:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2431517</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One of the problems with any study of this sort about the use of technology is that it does not have the larger picture in mind as to why we have students study and in some cases learn mathematics. In that case the role of technology is not understood in a context and perhaps it is abused by student AND faculty. Technology, in the modern sense, is just a tool, kind of like papyrus, clay table, pencil, paper, AND eraser(!), calculator, super computer, decimal value vs. Roman numerals, etc. How we elect to use the tool is really what is important. Learning a large number of algorithms is not really important any more I believe and my background is PhD mathematician who has taught at liberal arts college, major university, engineering schools, and military academies. I was taught how to extract square roots by hand in the 1950&#039;s. Think about that as a useful algorithm. Do you believe doing that algorithm really taught me anything? It sure did not reinforce the concept of finding a number which when multiplied by self would give the number in question, nor did it give me any sense about that problem or its usefulness.  We need to give students reasons to do mathematics and to use calculating devices by teaching mathematics in context at ALL stages of education. My son knew all his multiplication tables in grade school  in Indiana, but when I asked him about finding how much tiling we would need for a 8 ft by 7 foot bathroom he added 8 and 7. He now has a PhD and knows this from experience, NOT from algorithm learning or table memorization.  So stop fretting the particulars of calculator use and concentrate on why we are teaching mathematics in the first place. Then these issues will all fade away as we see that whatever tool we can get our hands on, if used correctly, to learn problem-solving, mathematics in context, and applications of quantitative reasoning is what is really important.

Brian Winkel, Director SIMIODE, www.simiode.org - look it up to find out what it is!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the problems with any study of this sort about the use of technology is that it does not have the larger picture in mind as to why we have students study and in some cases learn mathematics. In that case the role of technology is not understood in a context and perhaps it is abused by student AND faculty. Technology, in the modern sense, is just a tool, kind of like papyrus, clay table, pencil, paper, AND eraser(!), calculator, super computer, decimal value vs. Roman numerals, etc. How we elect to use the tool is really what is important. Learning a large number of algorithms is not really important any more I believe and my background is PhD mathematician who has taught at liberal arts college, major university, engineering schools, and military academies. I was taught how to extract square roots by hand in the 1950&#8217;s. Think about that as a useful algorithm. Do you believe doing that algorithm really taught me anything? It sure did not reinforce the concept of finding a number which when multiplied by self would give the number in question, nor did it give me any sense about that problem or its usefulness.  We need to give students reasons to do mathematics and to use calculating devices by teaching mathematics in context at ALL stages of education. My son knew all his multiplication tables in grade school  in Indiana, but when I asked him about finding how much tiling we would need for a 8 ft by 7 foot bathroom he added 8 and 7. He now has a PhD and knows this from experience, NOT from algorithm learning or table memorization.  So stop fretting the particulars of calculator use and concentrate on why we are teaching mathematics in the first place. Then these issues will all fade away as we see that whatever tool we can get our hands on, if used correctly, to learn problem-solving, mathematics in context, and applications of quantitative reasoning is what is really important.</p>
<p>Brian Winkel, Director SIMIODE, <a href="http://www.simiode.org/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.simiode.org/</a> &#8211; look it up to find out what it is!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Susan		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2431516</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Susan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2017 13:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2431516</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan--I appreciate the stats you provided about graphing calculators in calculus 1, but is there any more recent data of which you are aware? The study you referenced is 5+ years old, and my gut tells me that Desmos use has grown during that time.

I teach middle school math and would like to push for GC usage but would love the data to either support or challenge that push.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan&#8211;I appreciate the stats you provided about graphing calculators in calculus 1, but is there any more recent data of which you are aware? The study you referenced is 5+ years old, and my gut tells me that Desmos use has grown during that time.</p>
<p>I teach middle school math and would like to push for GC usage but would love the data to either support or challenge that push.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430869</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2016 17:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430869</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430803&quot;&gt;R. Craigen&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;&lt;a href=&quot;https://www.maa.org/external_archive/columns/launchings/launchings_06_11.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;53% allow graphing calculators on exams; 27% require graphing calculators for exams.&lt;/a&gt;&quot;

It appears college math instructors are somewhat less monolithic than you represent them here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430803">R. Craigen</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;<a href="https://www.maa.org/external_archive/columns/launchings/launchings_06_11.html" rel="nofollow">53% allow graphing calculators on exams; 27% require graphing calculators for exams.</a>&#8221;</p>
<p>It appears college math instructors are somewhat less monolithic than you represent them here.</p>
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		By: Diigo Links (weekly) &#124; Mr. Gonzalez&#039;s Classroom		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430833</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Diigo Links (weekly) &#124; Mr. Gonzalez&#039;s Classroom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Dec 2016 19:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430833</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] What’s Wrong with This Experiment? — dy/dan [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] What’s Wrong with This Experiment? — dy/dan [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brian Winkel		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430822</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Winkel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430822</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430775&quot;&gt;Paul Latiolais&lt;/a&gt;.

Spot on Paul. Computation is NOT mathematics. Mathematics is so much more and when mathematics people need help they turn to technology. Think ruler, compass, calculator, eraser, lined paper, etc.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430775">Paul Latiolais</a>.</p>
<p>Spot on Paul. Computation is NOT mathematics. Mathematics is so much more and when mathematics people need help they turn to technology. Think ruler, compass, calculator, eraser, lined paper, etc.</p>
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		<title>
		By: R. Craigen		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430803</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R. Craigen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Dec 2016 04:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430803</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know of many who say that calculator USE will inhibit understanding of procedures &#038;/or performance in higher math skills.  I do know of many (including myself) who believe, based on broad experience, that students who have come to RELY on calculators (which is something entirely different) for the most trivial tasks seem severely handicapped in higher processing and understanding of math.  Whether that is causational or correlational is not clear but I&#039;m prepared to hold to causation until shown otherwise -- it seems the most sensible default hypothesis.  A good experiment demonstrating causation is difficult to carry out cleanly, for reasons you outline here.

I don&#039;t tell my students not to use calculators in their work.  I don&#039;t really care.  But I forbid them on exams, and they know this.  So those who wish to survive my courses will understand that they cannot come to RELY on those calculators and must be prepared to work without them whenever necessary.

In the majority of college service math courses across North America students are forbidden to use calculators on exams.  Regardless of whether you believe this is a good or a bad thing, it is simply reality and you have no say in the matter.  Consequently if you are training your high school students to RELY on calculators, you are setting them up for near-certain failure in post-secondary math.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know of many who say that calculator USE will inhibit understanding of procedures &amp;/or performance in higher math skills.  I do know of many (including myself) who believe, based on broad experience, that students who have come to RELY on calculators (which is something entirely different) for the most trivial tasks seem severely handicapped in higher processing and understanding of math.  Whether that is causational or correlational is not clear but I&#8217;m prepared to hold to causation until shown otherwise &#8212; it seems the most sensible default hypothesis.  A good experiment demonstrating causation is difficult to carry out cleanly, for reasons you outline here.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t tell my students not to use calculators in their work.  I don&#8217;t really care.  But I forbid them on exams, and they know this.  So those who wish to survive my courses will understand that they cannot come to RELY on those calculators and must be prepared to work without them whenever necessary.</p>
<p>In the majority of college service math courses across North America students are forbidden to use calculators on exams.  Regardless of whether you believe this is a good or a bad thing, it is simply reality and you have no say in the matter.  Consequently if you are training your high school students to RELY on calculators, you are setting them up for near-certain failure in post-secondary math.</p>
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		<title>
		By: education realist		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430796</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[education realist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2016 17:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430796</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have three  observations, from *two* dramatically different perspectives.

1)  My Stewart pre-calc book has a whole chapter on polynomials: factoring, finding possible zeros, upper &#038; lower bounds, Descartes Rule of Signs, graphing rational functions, and so on. I teach this, but recently a colleague asked me why, given that all these methods were developed for an earlier era. I have completely changed how I teach logs, particularly change of base, because I just don&#039;t see the value. But to me, there&#039;s still purpose in teaching this. But I haven&#039;t had enough experience teaching pre-calc to make it something other than a lecture. 

2) I have not traditionally used calculators in the classroom much--never for tests. But I now require all my trig and precalc students to download Desmos (or use the URL), and encourage them to use it to check solutions, or to *see* solutions--particularly helpful for understanding how to find multiple solutions. In our school, we have an ideological divide between the math teachers who still teach kids how to use TI models and base their classes around it, and those of us who don&#039;t use calculators much but use Desmos as a tool.

3) I agree with what everyone is saying about the flawed methodology. But I can&#039;t help by being struck by the test&#039;s relevance to the life of a high school math teacher. We could give this test to kindergartners, and get a pretty decent correlation with Algebra 2 outcomes and all the occasional outliers of really struggling kids w/great math facts &#038; great abstract thinkers w/poor calculation skills aside, abilities predict academic success.  The Great Question of high school math is how to deal with the demands that we teach kids who aren&#039;t terribly good at math who are forced to take math.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have three  observations, from *two* dramatically different perspectives.</p>
<p>1)  My Stewart pre-calc book has a whole chapter on polynomials: factoring, finding possible zeros, upper &amp; lower bounds, Descartes Rule of Signs, graphing rational functions, and so on. I teach this, but recently a colleague asked me why, given that all these methods were developed for an earlier era. I have completely changed how I teach logs, particularly change of base, because I just don&#8217;t see the value. But to me, there&#8217;s still purpose in teaching this. But I haven&#8217;t had enough experience teaching pre-calc to make it something other than a lecture. </p>
<p>2) I have not traditionally used calculators in the classroom much&#8211;never for tests. But I now require all my trig and precalc students to download Desmos (or use the URL), and encourage them to use it to check solutions, or to *see* solutions&#8211;particularly helpful for understanding how to find multiple solutions. In our school, we have an ideological divide between the math teachers who still teach kids how to use TI models and base their classes around it, and those of us who don&#8217;t use calculators much but use Desmos as a tool.</p>
<p>3) I agree with what everyone is saying about the flawed methodology. But I can&#8217;t help by being struck by the test&#8217;s relevance to the life of a high school math teacher. We could give this test to kindergartners, and get a pretty decent correlation with Algebra 2 outcomes and all the occasional outliers of really struggling kids w/great math facts &amp; great abstract thinkers w/poor calculation skills aside, abilities predict academic success.  The Great Question of high school math is how to deal with the demands that we teach kids who aren&#8217;t terribly good at math who are forced to take math.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Laurie Hailer		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430779</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Laurie Hailer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2016 00:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430779</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I need more information about what the instructor really thought and what he was trying to understand or prove. I&#039;ll probably need to read that article, and that probably wont be enough. I&#039;m sure, though that I&#039;ll agree with all of the comments above which seem to be good critiques of the situation. Right off the bat, I completely agree with the correlation of the high test scores being more likely due more to compounding factors. 

Another thing, is that the instructor should not look at the scores of the pre-test (or predictive test here) until the end of all grading. That way, he isn&#039;t inclined to treat students differently during he semester. 

As a teacher, I would perhaps try to figure out more ways to teach those algorithms, if my desired outcome was to have more students master them. 

Last, I get concerned about critiquing work that I have very few details about. It would be better to engage in a conversation with the instructor to see what&#039;s not included in the article.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need more information about what the instructor really thought and what he was trying to understand or prove. I&#8217;ll probably need to read that article, and that probably wont be enough. I&#8217;m sure, though that I&#8217;ll agree with all of the comments above which seem to be good critiques of the situation. Right off the bat, I completely agree with the correlation of the high test scores being more likely due more to compounding factors. </p>
<p>Another thing, is that the instructor should not look at the scores of the pre-test (or predictive test here) until the end of all grading. That way, he isn&#8217;t inclined to treat students differently during he semester. </p>
<p>As a teacher, I would perhaps try to figure out more ways to teach those algorithms, if my desired outcome was to have more students master them. </p>
<p>Last, I get concerned about critiquing work that I have very few details about. It would be better to engage in a conversation with the instructor to see what&#8217;s not included in the article.</p>
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		<title>
		By: joe vignolini		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430778</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joe vignolini]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430778</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[doesn&#039;t this depend upon the context of the final exam. test takers are not &quot;great at math&quot;... referencing &quot;Lockhart&#039;s Lament&quot; = perhaps the top 25% are just good at &quot;following directions&quot; and not good at math...
As for the stats - it is very poor.. I can show a correlation between age and SAT scores, or SAT scores and height...

Sorry - I was thinking today when I woke up... How can we possibly measure &quot;what students learn and understand&quot; - rather than knowing what we tested?  In other words - getting away from Solving problems and &quot;doing math&quot; to &quot;problem solving of the highest level - like the Moody&#039;s or HiMCM... &quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>doesn&#8217;t this depend upon the context of the final exam. test takers are not &#8220;great at math&#8221;&#8230; referencing &#8220;Lockhart&#8217;s Lament&#8221; = perhaps the top 25% are just good at &#8220;following directions&#8221; and not good at math&#8230;<br />
As for the stats &#8211; it is very poor.. I can show a correlation between age and SAT scores, or SAT scores and height&#8230;</p>
<p>Sorry &#8211; I was thinking today when I woke up&#8230; How can we possibly measure &#8220;what students learn and understand&#8221; &#8211; rather than knowing what we tested?  In other words &#8211; getting away from Solving problems and &#8220;doing math&#8221; to &#8220;problem solving of the highest level &#8211; like the Moody&#8217;s or HiMCM&#8230; &#8220;</p>
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		<title>
		By: MattJ		</title>
		<link>/2016/whats-wrong-with-this-experiment/#comment-2430777</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=26133#comment-2430777</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One person he doesn&#039;t control for is me. The careless, absentminded mistake-maker :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One person he doesn&#8217;t control for is me. The careless, absentminded mistake-maker :)</p>
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