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	Comments on: Who Wore It Best: Pool Table Math	</title>
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	<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/</link>
	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:49:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2425069</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2425069</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Me&lt;/strong&gt;, at the end of this post:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The resource I need doesn’t seem to exist yet, so I’ll try to build it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here is &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/3acts-eight-shots/&quot;&gt;the second or third draft&lt;/a&gt; of that resource.

&lt;strong&gt;Mr. K&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I remember &lt;a href=&quot;/2007/geometry-week-2-2007/&quot;&gt;some math teacher&lt;/a&gt; doing a pool lesson that used reflection instead of angles of incidence.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, that math teacher had a lot more faith in the power of a good explanation than I do. There are some good visuals in those slides, but the students didn&#039;t &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; much except watch them.

&lt;strong&gt;Alan Levine&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Takes me back to 4th grade, Mr Fike, who showed us the film strip of Donald Duck explaining angles through pool.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That movie is timeless.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The problem of course is all the math depends on dead center cue hitting the ball, and everything in pool depends on understanding spins.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think this is a really strong argument for &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; taking kids to the pool hall. There really &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; a sound, interesting mathematical model at work here. Seeing the power of that model depends on the teacher&#039;s ability to silence a lot of noise. That&#039;s where &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.knowledgeadventure.com/games/pool-practice/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the video game&lt;/a&gt; enters, I think. It&#039;s close enough to the actual pool to resonate with students. It&#039;s far enough way that the math will work.

&lt;strong&gt;Riley&lt;/strong&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;A ball following a line to a cushion doesn’t even touch the cushion at a point on the line! Because of the width of the ball, it strikes the cushion at a point to the side of the line.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I realized this while making &lt;a href=&quot;/2016/3acts-eight-shots/&quot;&gt;my three-act version&lt;/a&gt;. Don&#039;t draw the ray directly to the cushion. Draw it until it&#039;s a cue ball&#039;s width away.

&lt;blockquote&gt;It’s not just margins of error. The math actually isn’t there. I’d stick with lasers and mirrors!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hm. There is the kind of error where I assume the path of a basketball follows an exponential curve. Then there is the kind of error where I apply a quadratic fit to the basketball but neglect some wind resistance. Those are different kinds of error. You&#039;re of the mind that with pool table math we&#039;re working with the first kind of error?

&lt;strong&gt;Tim M.&lt;/strong&gt;, I like those ideas. At any point in the lesson do students have a chance to see whether or not their mathematical predictions are correct? Unless I&#039;m missing a feature, the student draws rays, segments, etc, keeping the angles congruent. Her faith in the correctness of that geometry will vary directly with her faith in the power of math. If she has low faith, then she&#039;s pushing math around because her teacher told her this is how math works.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Me</strong>, at the end of this post:</p>
<blockquote><p>The resource I need doesn’t seem to exist yet, so I’ll try to build it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Here is <a href="/2016/3acts-eight-shots/">the second or third draft</a> of that resource.</p>
<p><strong>Mr. K</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>I remember <a href="/2007/geometry-week-2-2007/">some math teacher</a> doing a pool lesson that used reflection instead of angles of incidence.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, that math teacher had a lot more faith in the power of a good explanation than I do. There are some good visuals in those slides, but the students didn&#8217;t <em>do</em> much except watch them.</p>
<p><strong>Alan Levine</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Takes me back to 4th grade, Mr Fike, who showed us the film strip of Donald Duck explaining angles through pool.</p></blockquote>
<p>That movie is timeless.</p>
<blockquote><p>The problem of course is all the math depends on dead center cue hitting the ball, and everything in pool depends on understanding spins.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think this is a really strong argument for <em>not</em> taking kids to the pool hall. There really <em>is</em> a sound, interesting mathematical model at work here. Seeing the power of that model depends on the teacher&#8217;s ability to silence a lot of noise. That&#8217;s where <a href="http://www.knowledgeadventure.com/games/pool-practice/" rel="nofollow">the video game</a> enters, I think. It&#8217;s close enough to the actual pool to resonate with students. It&#8217;s far enough way that the math will work.</p>
<p><strong>Riley</strong>:</p>
<blockquote><p>A ball following a line to a cushion doesn’t even touch the cushion at a point on the line! Because of the width of the ball, it strikes the cushion at a point to the side of the line.</p></blockquote>
<p>I realized this while making <a href="/2016/3acts-eight-shots/">my three-act version</a>. Don&#8217;t draw the ray directly to the cushion. Draw it until it&#8217;s a cue ball&#8217;s width away.</p>
<blockquote><p>It’s not just margins of error. The math actually isn’t there. I’d stick with lasers and mirrors!</p></blockquote>
<p>Hm. There is the kind of error where I assume the path of a basketball follows an exponential curve. Then there is the kind of error where I apply a quadratic fit to the basketball but neglect some wind resistance. Those are different kinds of error. You&#8217;re of the mind that with pool table math we&#8217;re working with the first kind of error?</p>
<p><strong>Tim M.</strong>, I like those ideas. At any point in the lesson do students have a chance to see whether or not their mathematical predictions are correct? Unless I&#8217;m missing a feature, the student draws rays, segments, etc, keeping the angles congruent. Her faith in the correctness of that geometry will vary directly with her faith in the power of math. If she has low faith, then she&#8217;s pushing math around because her teacher told her this is how math works.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [3ACTS] Eight Shots		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2425062</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dy/dan &#187; Blog Archive &#187; [3ACTS] Eight Shots]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2016 17:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2425062</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Last week&#8217;s installment of Who Wore It Best looked at three textbooks each trying to exploit billiards as a context in geometry. None of the textbooks applied all three steps. I needed a resource that didn&#8217;t exist and I spent two days building it. Here is how it works. [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Last week&#8217;s installment of Who Wore It Best looked at three textbooks each trying to exploit billiards as a context in geometry. None of the textbooks applied all three steps. I needed a resource that didn&#8217;t exist and I spent two days building it. Here is how it works. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Riley Eynon-Lynch		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424977</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Riley Eynon-Lynch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2016 21:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424977</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I get a knot of anxiety in my stomach when I see pool examples. The balls don&#039;t follow the same laws of light, and the diagrams are fundamentally misrepresentative. A ball following a line to a cushion doesn&#039;t even touch the cushion at a point on the line! Because of the width of the ball, it strikes the cushion at a point to the side of the line. If you do that thing where you lay out points on a pool table, the ball only follows the path it&#039;s supposed to in a few setups, and only if you assume the error you see is evenly distributed around the points you&#039;re predicting.

It&#039;s not just margins of error. The math actually isn&#039;t there. I&#039;d stick with lasers and mirrors!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get a knot of anxiety in my stomach when I see pool examples. The balls don&#8217;t follow the same laws of light, and the diagrams are fundamentally misrepresentative. A ball following a line to a cushion doesn&#8217;t even touch the cushion at a point on the line! Because of the width of the ball, it strikes the cushion at a point to the side of the line. If you do that thing where you lay out points on a pool table, the ball only follows the path it&#8217;s supposed to in a few setups, and only if you assume the error you see is evenly distributed around the points you&#8217;re predicting.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not just margins of error. The math actually isn&#8217;t there. I&#8217;d stick with lasers and mirrors!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sharon Hessney		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424976</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sharon Hessney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2016 20:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424976</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How about using a knock hockey table -- rather than going to a pool hall.  Let the students experiment with their own shots.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about using a knock hockey table &#8212; rather than going to a pool hall.  Let the students experiment with their own shots.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott Farrar		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424909</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Farrar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2016 06:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424909</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here are the links to Kate&#039;s post... actually from 2009 :)

http://function-of-time.blogspot.com/2009/01/where-to-bounce-ball-to-get-it-to-your.html

http://function-of-time.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-bounce-ball-part-2-solution.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are the links to Kate&#8217;s post&#8230; actually from 2009 :)</p>
<p><a href="http://function-of-time.blogspot.com/2009/01/where-to-bounce-ball-to-get-it-to-your.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://function-of-time.blogspot.com/2009/01/where-to-bounce-ball-to-get-it-to-your.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://function-of-time.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-bounce-ball-part-2-solution.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://function-of-time.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-bounce-ball-part-2-solution.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott Farrar		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424908</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Farrar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2016 06:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424908</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kate Nowak had a blog post long ago (2010?) that described her kids inventing a game kind of out of the blue. Two students would face a wall, they&#039;d take turns to bounce a ball against the wall at a diagonal so that the other student would be able to grab it.

I think Kate got them going on formalizing some of the things they were doing informally, like being able to predict where to stand.

It wasn&#039;t that the formalization was &quot;in order to do it better&quot; it was just a way to dig deeper to understand something the students were already interested in.

Are students already interested in pool? Then these lesson intros can be shorthand for reloading that context into the present. But if not, then I don&#039;t think its super effective.

I think the game stuff can be better at gathering the informal interest upon which you can build interest in formality. The game can be a shared experience, a contained experience, one that students can play &quot;from scratch&quot; instead of a book trying to jog memory about billiards which maybe the reader knows or cares nothing about.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kate Nowak had a blog post long ago (2010?) that described her kids inventing a game kind of out of the blue. Two students would face a wall, they&#8217;d take turns to bounce a ball against the wall at a diagonal so that the other student would be able to grab it.</p>
<p>I think Kate got them going on formalizing some of the things they were doing informally, like being able to predict where to stand.</p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t that the formalization was &#8220;in order to do it better&#8221; it was just a way to dig deeper to understand something the students were already interested in.</p>
<p>Are students already interested in pool? Then these lesson intros can be shorthand for reloading that context into the present. But if not, then I don&#8217;t think its super effective.</p>
<p>I think the game stuff can be better at gathering the informal interest upon which you can build interest in formality. The game can be a shared experience, a contained experience, one that students can play &#8220;from scratch&#8221; instead of a book trying to jog memory about billiards which maybe the reader knows or cares nothing about.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Xavier		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424845</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Xavier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424845</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It think it&#039;s not real world. It&#039;s an artificial thing for putting in textbook. No one pro calculates nothing for hitting the ball like no basketball player needs to calculate nothing to shot (only army needs it to accuracy at maximum for missiles).

But if you want to use this billiar issue, I think you have just one option: programming. How do you program a robot for, given two balls, hit one with another?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It think it&#8217;s not real world. It&#8217;s an artificial thing for putting in textbook. No one pro calculates nothing for hitting the ball like no basketball player needs to calculate nothing to shot (only army needs it to accuracy at maximum for missiles).</p>
<p>But if you want to use this billiar issue, I think you have just one option: programming. How do you program a robot for, given two balls, hit one with another?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tim M.		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424830</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2016 02:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424830</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I do something similar with miniature golf. Students have a diagram of a ball and a hole and they want to get a hole-in-one but there is a water hazard and they must bank the ball off of a wall. I give students rulers, protractors, compasses, etc. and students try to find a reasonable path on their own. 

Students inevitably make their incoming and outgoing angles different measures and in groups or as a class we come to the conclusion that theoretically that wouldn&#039;t be possible and the angle the ball hits the wall should be the same at the angle in which it comes off the wall. 

Next, students think of a way to systematically find that point that we must aim at, and many members of the class will usually use reflections. I have a version on Geogebra for students to use as well (https://www.geogebra.org/m/W6fgwFbG)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do something similar with miniature golf. Students have a diagram of a ball and a hole and they want to get a hole-in-one but there is a water hazard and they must bank the ball off of a wall. I give students rulers, protractors, compasses, etc. and students try to find a reasonable path on their own. </p>
<p>Students inevitably make their incoming and outgoing angles different measures and in groups or as a class we come to the conclusion that theoretically that wouldn&#8217;t be possible and the angle the ball hits the wall should be the same at the angle in which it comes off the wall. </p>
<p>Next, students think of a way to systematically find that point that we must aim at, and many members of the class will usually use reflections. I have a version on Geogebra for students to use as well (<a href="https://www.geogebra.org/m/W6fgwFbG" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.geogebra.org/m/W6fgwFbG</a>)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Dyer		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424826</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2016 00:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424826</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t have this sheet anymore, but I did an activity once where students used marbles and pencils for mini-billiards and were challenged (using a set paper as the pool table) to figure out how to get from point A to point B with X bounces (being from 1 to 3).

It was fun and got the incidental angle idea across (unlike some enrichment activities that are just, er, fun), but the concept got removed from the main part of the curriculum and I didn&#039;t have the time to justify the investment in other years (takes about 2 hours).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have this sheet anymore, but I did an activity once where students used marbles and pencils for mini-billiards and were challenged (using a set paper as the pool table) to figure out how to get from point A to point B with X bounces (being from 1 to 3).</p>
<p>It was fun and got the incidental angle idea across (unlike some enrichment activities that are just, er, fun), but the concept got removed from the main part of the curriculum and I didn&#8217;t have the time to justify the investment in other years (takes about 2 hours).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Alan Levine		</title>
		<link>/2016/who-wore-it-best-pool-table-math/#comment-2424823</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Levine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2016 00:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=25219#comment-2424823</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Takes me back to 4th grade, Mr Fike, who showed us the film strip of Donald Duck explaining angles through pool. What I remember was to do a bank shot we were to aim for the reflection of the ball we were trying to hit to get the right bank spot. The problem of course is all the math depends on dead center cue hitting the ball, and everything in pool depends on understanding spins. The whole language of the word problems take away anything real.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Takes me back to 4th grade, Mr Fike, who showed us the film strip of Donald Duck explaining angles through pool. What I remember was to do a bank shot we were to aim for the reflection of the ball we were trying to hit to get the right bank spot. The problem of course is all the math depends on dead center cue hitting the ball, and everything in pool depends on understanding spins. The whole language of the word problems take away anything real.</p>
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