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	Comments on: [NCTM18] Why Good Activities Go Bad	</title>
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	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 May 2018 18:28:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Bethany Sansing-Helton		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443964</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bethany Sansing-Helton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2018 18:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443964</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan - I&#039;m so glad you recall your time in Madison fondly! Your workshop had a huge impact on me and I really appreciated being able to have you on my campus. I agree that it is important for people to be able to follow precise, well-understood procedures. I have found that precise procedures are pretty easy to create. The challenge comes in how to support students *wanting* to understand them. I think that everything I&#039;ve been doing is around creating a need. That is where supports for teachers could really be improved. How exactly do I help my students understand the value of the order of operations? Teaching them an acronym to memorize does not help it be &#039;well-understood,&#039; and neither does giving them tons of problems to practice. But, cognitive non-routine work can provide that &#039;need&#039; that makes them WANT to understand it. Then, their minds are open and thoughtful when the procedure is introduced. So, I&#039;m always looking for supports for as an instructor to skillfully engage students in non-routine cognitive work. That&#039;s where I find the biggest challenge, and the biggest benefits for students.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan &#8211; I&#8217;m so glad you recall your time in Madison fondly! Your workshop had a huge impact on me and I really appreciated being able to have you on my campus. I agree that it is important for people to be able to follow precise, well-understood procedures. I have found that precise procedures are pretty easy to create. The challenge comes in how to support students *wanting* to understand them. I think that everything I&#8217;ve been doing is around creating a need. That is where supports for teachers could really be improved. How exactly do I help my students understand the value of the order of operations? Teaching them an acronym to memorize does not help it be &#8216;well-understood,&#8217; and neither does giving them tons of problems to practice. But, cognitive non-routine work can provide that &#8216;need&#8217; that makes them WANT to understand it. Then, their minds are open and thoughtful when the procedure is introduced. So, I&#8217;m always looking for supports for as an instructor to skillfully engage students in non-routine cognitive work. That&#8217;s where I find the biggest challenge, and the biggest benefits for students.</p>
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		By: NCTM Favorites&#8230;Your Colleagues are AWESOME! &#8211; SMCPS Secondary Math Department		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443952</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NCTM Favorites&#8230;Your Colleagues are AWESOME! &#8211; SMCPS Secondary Math Department]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2018 13:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443952</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Dan Myer: Why Good Problems go Bad [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Dan Myer: Why Good Problems go Bad [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443877</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2018 22:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443877</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443853&quot;&gt;Adina R&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;m the worst at thinking about alignment. My answer: &quot;whatever age students who would find the question interesting and developmentally appropriate!&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443853">Adina R</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m the worst at thinking about alignment. My answer: &#8220;whatever age students who would find the question interesting and developmentally appropriate!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Adina R		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443853</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adina R]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2018 02:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443853</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So much food for thought! Thank you. One thing I&#039;m left thinking about is I wonder how I would present to my students the non-routine &quot;fake-world&quot; task you presented to estimate 32^35. When I first looked at it, my reaction was &quot;I have no idea how anyone would estimate that!&quot; and I think that my students&#039; reactions would be something along those lines. However, since I was watching the recording and not the live talk, I had the opportunity to stop the video and try out the math. Once I sat down and tried to do the math, not calculating, but playing tried playing around with the numbers to get a better sense of how many digits the number I was dealing with had, some really interesting math emerged, as well as an intellectual need to write out large numbers in shorthand (for which I turned to scientific notation). It&#039;s fantastic! What age/grade level range do you think this task is appropriate for?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So much food for thought! Thank you. One thing I&#8217;m left thinking about is I wonder how I would present to my students the non-routine &#8220;fake-world&#8221; task you presented to estimate 32^35. When I first looked at it, my reaction was &#8220;I have no idea how anyone would estimate that!&#8221; and I think that my students&#8217; reactions would be something along those lines. However, since I was watching the recording and not the live talk, I had the opportunity to stop the video and try out the math. Once I sat down and tried to do the math, not calculating, but playing tried playing around with the numbers to get a better sense of how many digits the number I was dealing with had, some really interesting math emerged, as well as an intellectual need to write out large numbers in shorthand (for which I turned to scientific notation). It&#8217;s fantastic! What age/grade level range do you think this task is appropriate for?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443824</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2018 21:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443824</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443816&quot;&gt;Kristina Linberg&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the feedback, Kristina! If you&#039;re writing at all about your work in digital learning, please pass along a link.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443816">Kristina Linberg</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback, Kristina! If you&#8217;re writing at all about your work in digital learning, please pass along a link.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kristina Linberg		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443816</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristina Linberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2018 14:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443816</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow. I&#039;ve been following your blog for many years, and before I left the 7th grade math classroom to become a Digital Learning Specialist, your posts were a springboard for helping me re-evaluate my teaching and revise my methods. This presentation is by far the best snapshot of how we should be teaching math. Thank you for sharing this talk. &quot;Non-routine learning&quot; captures exactly how I felt math should be taught, which can be tough in a subject area so full of educators that prioritize &quot;routine learning&quot;. Thank you for nailing it!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. I&#8217;ve been following your blog for many years, and before I left the 7th grade math classroom to become a Digital Learning Specialist, your posts were a springboard for helping me re-evaluate my teaching and revise my methods. This presentation is by far the best snapshot of how we should be teaching math. Thank you for sharing this talk. &#8220;Non-routine learning&#8221; captures exactly how I felt math should be taught, which can be tough in a subject area so full of educators that prioritize &#8220;routine learning&#8221;. Thank you for nailing it!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443774</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2018 16:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443774</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443764&quot;&gt;Martin Joyce&lt;/a&gt;.

Thx for the feedback, Martin. Never a bad idea to skip one of my talks since they generally find their way online sooner or later.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443764">Martin Joyce</a>.</p>
<p>Thx for the feedback, Martin. Never a bad idea to skip one of my talks since they generally find their way online sooner or later.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Martin Joyce		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443764</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Joyce]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2018 21:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443764</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dan, great talk. I missed it at Asilomar. I like how this presentation ties in a lot of your big ideas about estimating, 3 act, engagement, etc. and your quadrant about real work in the fake world totally reminds me of Open Middle problems, which I have only used as extension problems so far, never as the main lesson for a whole class. And the animation slide of the questions with the spaces below them really kills the back and forth that&#039;s possibly when co-constructing a 3 act lesson. My favorites for these are Gfletchy&#039;s Apple 3 act and Stadel&#039;s File Cabinet.

I&#039;ve also noticed (pun unintended) that the Notice and wonder routine really seems to increase the cognitive work kids do. Thanks.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, great talk. I missed it at Asilomar. I like how this presentation ties in a lot of your big ideas about estimating, 3 act, engagement, etc. and your quadrant about real work in the fake world totally reminds me of Open Middle problems, which I have only used as extension problems so far, never as the main lesson for a whole class. And the animation slide of the questions with the spaces below them really kills the back and forth that&#8217;s possibly when co-constructing a 3 act lesson. My favorites for these are Gfletchy&#8217;s Apple 3 act and Stadel&#8217;s File Cabinet.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also noticed (pun unintended) that the Notice and wonder routine really seems to increase the cognitive work kids do. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Meyer		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443741</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Meyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2018 00:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443741</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443479&quot;&gt;Jane Taylor&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the update, Bethany. Really fun to recall my time at Madison.

I also find these terms can occasionally squish together in ways that leave teachers just leaning on their existing ideas —Â &quot;contextualized,&quot; &quot;productive struggle,&quot; &quot;non-routine,&quot; etc.

That&#039;s why I like Autor &amp; Price&#039;s description of &quot;routine cognitive work&quot;:

&quot;The core job tasks of [routine cognitive] occupations in many cases is to follow precise, well-understood procedures.&quot;

Precise well-understood procedures shouldn&#039;t be avoided in math instruction, but we need to balance them in accordance with their value to a student&#039;s math education and their preparation for future work.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443479">Jane Taylor</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the update, Bethany. Really fun to recall my time at Madison.</p>
<p>I also find these terms can occasionally squish together in ways that leave teachers just leaning on their existing ideas —Â &#8220;contextualized,&#8221; &#8220;productive struggle,&#8221; &#8220;non-routine,&#8221; etc.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I like Autor &#038; Price&#8217;s description of &#8220;routine cognitive work&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;The core job tasks of [routine cognitive] occupations in many cases is to follow precise, well-understood procedures.&#8221;</p>
<p>Precise well-understood procedures shouldn&#8217;t be avoided in math instruction, but we need to balance them in accordance with their value to a student&#8217;s math education and their preparation for future work.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bethany Sansing-Helton		</title>
		<link>/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443686</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bethany Sansing-Helton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2018 22:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=27635#comment-2443686</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443479&quot;&gt;Jane Taylor&lt;/a&gt;.

Just to comment on &#039;how best to enact non-routine teaching.&#039; I have first hand experience with getting excellent instructions for teachers for non-routine tasks. I teach the Carnegie Math Pathways (CMP) materials at a 2-year college, and the entire structure of the curriculum is contextualized lessons. The implementation of the lessons is meant to provide &#039;productive struggle&#039; for students. I think their term &#039;contextualized lessons&#039; and your term &#039;non-routine tasks&#039; get at a very similar point... both are attempting to create a space where students engage fully in the learning. The folks at CMP call that full engagement &#039;productive struggle.&#039; I have been teaching their curriculum for 4 years, and I love it. 
In the curriculum, there is very minimal instructions for students and almost every lesson starts with asking students to estimate and/or predict. A typical lesson for a student is about 4 pages. The Instructor Notes that go with it are more like 14 pages. In the instructor notes there are suggested ways to have students work on a problem (small group, class discussion), there are also suggested ways to question students to encourage them to think through the problems. There are also lots of possible solutions given that students might come up with and how to address misconceptions while still keeping the students in charge of their own learning. Another support provided to help me and other faculty teach non-routine content to students is professional development training. In the training we get to watch videos of experienced faculty engaging with students. We also get to collaborate and discuss how we would teach a lesson and support non-routine learning for our students. I have learned a lot about how to &#039;be less helpful&#039; and support students through productive struggle from those instructor notes and the training. Finally, another support provided is a faculty mentor during the first year you teach it. I had a mentor my first year and now, full disclosure, I was so impressed and transformed by what I learned, that now, besides still teaching math, I am paid to mentor other new faculty. 
All of these supports make supporting non-routine thinking for students much more accessible and less scary for faculty that have little experience with it.  
Also, as a side note... Dan, you came to my college back in 2012 and did an absolutely amazing workshop around the 3-act tasks. I learned so so much from you in that workshop. One of the biggest things I learned was that I was delivering the first act all wrong. I was asking... &quot;what questions come to mind&quot; but really, what the student knew I was asking was &quot;which student can tell me the question I am looking for.&quot; Even with that knowledge, I still struggle with my delivery and with student engagement in the tasks. I think some of my struggle could be helped if I utilized the math community on twitter more. But, one way that I think it could also be alleviated (somewhat) is by creating instructor notes. Because it&#039;s not just the *what* it&#039;s the *how*]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="/2018/nctm18-why-good-activities-go-bad/#comment-2443479">Jane Taylor</a>.</p>
<p>Just to comment on &#8216;how best to enact non-routine teaching.&#8217; I have first hand experience with getting excellent instructions for teachers for non-routine tasks. I teach the Carnegie Math Pathways (CMP) materials at a 2-year college, and the entire structure of the curriculum is contextualized lessons. The implementation of the lessons is meant to provide &#8216;productive struggle&#8217; for students. I think their term &#8216;contextualized lessons&#8217; and your term &#8216;non-routine tasks&#8217; get at a very similar point&#8230; both are attempting to create a space where students engage fully in the learning. The folks at CMP call that full engagement &#8216;productive struggle.&#8217; I have been teaching their curriculum for 4 years, and I love it.<br />
In the curriculum, there is very minimal instructions for students and almost every lesson starts with asking students to estimate and/or predict. A typical lesson for a student is about 4 pages. The Instructor Notes that go with it are more like 14 pages. In the instructor notes there are suggested ways to have students work on a problem (small group, class discussion), there are also suggested ways to question students to encourage them to think through the problems. There are also lots of possible solutions given that students might come up with and how to address misconceptions while still keeping the students in charge of their own learning. Another support provided to help me and other faculty teach non-routine content to students is professional development training. In the training we get to watch videos of experienced faculty engaging with students. We also get to collaborate and discuss how we would teach a lesson and support non-routine learning for our students. I have learned a lot about how to &#8216;be less helpful&#8217; and support students through productive struggle from those instructor notes and the training. Finally, another support provided is a faculty mentor during the first year you teach it. I had a mentor my first year and now, full disclosure, I was so impressed and transformed by what I learned, that now, besides still teaching math, I am paid to mentor other new faculty.<br />
All of these supports make supporting non-routine thinking for students much more accessible and less scary for faculty that have little experience with it.<br />
Also, as a side note&#8230; Dan, you came to my college back in 2012 and did an absolutely amazing workshop around the 3-act tasks. I learned so so much from you in that workshop. One of the biggest things I learned was that I was delivering the first act all wrong. I was asking&#8230; &#8220;what questions come to mind&#8221; but really, what the student knew I was asking was &#8220;which student can tell me the question I am looking for.&#8221; Even with that knowledge, I still struggle with my delivery and with student engagement in the tasks. I think some of my struggle could be helped if I utilized the math community on twitter more. But, one way that I think it could also be alleviated (somewhat) is by creating instructor notes. Because it&#8217;s not just the *what* it&#8217;s the *how*</p>
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